How to link a M9 with GPS data

[bill]

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We are a self-selecting group...

 

What part of this is hard to understand?

 

Quantitative analysis is clearly not your strong point.

 

Let's face it, if Leica set their marketing direction by listening to "he who shouts loudest and longest" they would have gone to the wall before getting the first nu-Visoflex to market. Fortunately they appear more inclined to the view that "empty vessels make most noise" and view such things in context.

 

I would never be so arrogant as to assume that I spoke for a majority - or even a significant minority - of Leica users. It is a shame that others are incapable of the same level of self-awareness.

[jaapv]

This is clearly the case but there is a downside for those that actually own a M8 or M9 and want to buy and influence the next model.

 

Why on earth should anybody have the arrogance to want to do that?? Leica develops and build cameras. If you like them, buy them. If you don't, don't. I would not like a common denominator type Leica, most of Leica's customer base wouldn't, I suspect.

[Guest BigSplash]

I am curious:

• Why is it arrogant for a Leica owner with a bunch of Leica kit and a regular user of M8 to voice an opinion about what he or she would like to see in the portfolio or in the M10?
  
• Why is it that Leica apparently get their input from pros.? When we are told that pros have "dropped" Leica since decades.
  
• Why is it that Leica are considered by some to be brilliant marketeers by not considering a new Visoflex (which I accept "maybe" or "may not be" a very wise business decision). My "quantitative" analysis suggests that historically Leica's market lead strategic decisions have been wanting. I would suggest that history is certainly not giving credence to a Leica management knows best dictum or even has judged the market properly. If you want examples:
  
  • Missed SLR takeoff by a decade...Seen as a passing fad?
    
  • Missed an opportunity to get into MicroFiche technology in the 60's
    
  • Missed through the lens metering by about a decade seen as not needed.
    
  • Patented the AF technology but did not use it as the beliefe was that the market did not need it.
    
  • Missed Digital Camera technology by about a decade feeling that film would remain dominant.
    
  • Have launched M9, and superb new lenses .....and stimulated huge demand. Unfortunately Leica management clearly did not quantify this demand as it is after 5 months of production simply unable to meet that demand, or inform its dealers
    

Leica withdrew support of this Forum 3 years ago and maybe that was a tough decision that needed to be made given that the company was facing at that time financial ruin.........I think Andreas and the moderators have done a great job. I remain unconvinced that Leica could not become closer coupled and in a structured way obtain client feedback.

 

I do not believe that this has anything to do with shouting loudest. I do believe that succesful companies listen to their clients.

[stunsworth]

Why is it that Leica apparently get their input from pros.? When we are told that pros have "dropped" Leica since decades

 

Frank, pros do use the camera, it's just that it is no longer the choice of the majority of pros - and I have no intention of debating once again why that might be. A pro will typically, to use a horrible phrase, "push the envelope" of the camera more. They are likely to take a lot more frames, under more demanding circumstances than the average amateur. They are likely to have used a larger range of equipment - cameras and lenses - than the average amateur. To summarise, they are likely to have more experience in all aspects of operation than an amateur.

 

Who would I rather have reporting to Leica, you or an experienced Leica using pro? I think I know the answer to that one.

[bill]

Who would I rather have reporting to Leica, you or an experienced Leica using pro? I think I know the answer to that one.

 

+1

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[adan]

First, thanks to those who explained some reasons for using GPS data w/photos.

 

Back in the era of the M4, Leica's ad tagline was "The 'Think' Camera." The implication being, "this is the camera for people smart enough to figure exposure without a built-in meter. If that doesn't include you - move on."

 

I guess in today's world, that could translate to "the camera for people smart enough to remember where they were when they pushed the button."

 

Part of what attracts me to Leica M is precisely the respect Leica pays me by producing a product that assumes I am capable and intelligent and do not need any help from them beyond a box to hold a lens at one end and a light-sensitive surface on the other.

 

I don't need a camera resembling Al Czervik's golf bag: http://www.retrojunk.com/img/art-images/alczervik.jpg - There's a reason he "don't get no respect."

 

Now, it may be true that the world has more Al Czervik photographers in it than self-reliant photographers - and maybe that limits Leica's market potential to "enough" and not "more." That's OK with me if it's OK with Leica. "More" is for Johnny Rocco, the mobster in Key Largo.

 

Frank McCloud: He wants more, don't you, Rocco?

Johnny Rocco: Yeah. That's it. More. That's right! I want more!

James Temple: Will you ever get enough?

 

"Missed an opportunity to get into MicroFiche technology in the 60's" - Ah, yes, the synergy of office equipment and fine photography.

[andybarton]

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i guess in today's world, that could translate to "the camera for people smart enough to remember where they were when they pushed the button."

 

 

part of what attracts me to leica m is precisely the respect leica pays me by producing a product that assumes i am capable and intelligent and do not need any help from them beyond a box to hold a lens at one end and a light-sensitive surface on the other.

 

+1

[Guest BigSplash]

"Missed an opportunity to get into MicroFiche technology in the 60's" - Ah, yes, the synergy of office equipment and fine photography.

 

Actually I was not trying to suggest such synergy. I was observing something else.

 

In the 60's photography was limited by photochemistry and Leica was involved making the best optics to make big objects fit a 35mm window with the least amount of grain. Fine grain drove a need for faster lenses, which Leica designed and produced.

 

They did not look at the fact that as grain size became miniscule it was also possible using Leica optics to create and own a new emergent market: the multibillion dollar microfiche industry . In fact a few ex Leitz engineers left the company and set up their own microfiche business and built a very significant business.

 

Again this was a missed market opportunity that was not enjoyed by Leitz. ..that was my point.

[bill]

First, thanks to those who explained some reasons for using GPS data w/photos.

 

+ 1

 

As I said, I have no problem with understanding many of the applications.

 

Part of what attracts me to Leica M is precisely the respect Leica pays me by producing a product that assumes I am capable and intelligent and do not need any help from them beyond a box to hold a lens at one end and a light-sensitive surface on the other.

 

+1

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[stunsworth]

In the 60's photography was limited by photochemistry and Leica was involved making the best optics to make big objects fit a 35mm window with the least amount of grain.

 

Frank, I'm missing something. Are you saying that photographs taken with Leica lenses had less grain than when the same film was used with other lenses?

 

You say fine grain drove the need for faster lenses, but surely the 60s saw improved emulsions where finer grain was realised without any penalty in film speed.

[Guest BigSplash]

Frank, pros do use the camera, it's just that it is no longer the choice of the majority of pros - and I have no intention of debating once again why that might be. A pro will typically, to use a horrible phrase, "push the envelope" of the camera more. They are likely to take a lot more frames, under more demanding circumstances than the average amateur. They are likely to have used a larger range of equipment - cameras and lenses - than the average amateur. To summarise, they are likely to have more experience in all aspects of operation than an amateur.

 

Who would I rather have reporting to Leica, you or an experienced Leica using pro? I think I know the answer to that one.

 

I can see where you are coming from ...Pros use the camera more, push it to its limit and have mostly decided in favour of none Leica product as a consequence since several decades. Several Pros with close links to the factory today do not even pay for their camera and lenses.

 

The guys like me that buy Leica should be pleased that Leica listen to the filtered input of these pros. I guess that I should indeed feel fortunate.

 

On the other hand you imply that I as someone who exclusively uses Leica equipment have nothing of interest that Leica could learn from as to what I am looking for and what would cause me to open my cheque book. I did not buy the M9 as yet and I live in hope M10 is what I want.

 

The truth is Leica should be client driven and take a wide range of inputs from those that buy and use their products, maybe supplemented by some inputs from pros. that make the comparison with Nikon and Canon.

[bill]

The truth is Leica should be client driven and take a wide range of inputs from those that buy and use their products, maybe supplemented by some inputs from pros.

 

Just because they don't ask you, don't assume they don't ask others...

[Guest BigSplash]

Frank, I'm missing something. Are you saying that photographs taken with Leica lenses had less grain than when the same film was used with other lenses?

 

You say fine grain drove the need for faster lenses, but surely the 60s saw improved emulsions where finer grain was realised without any penalty in film speed.

 

No I am saying that Leitz were already in 1934 making sub f1 lenses (eg 75mm Summar f0.85 lens used in XRay equipment and in 1936 Olympics for projection purposes). This knowhow eventually resulted in the f1.2 Noctilux shown at Photokina 1966. No other company at that time was able to produce such high speed lenses that allowed Leitz to dominate a niche using very fine grain emulsions (very low ASA).

 

Historically at this time there was a club of photochemists called the "circle of confusion" that met weekly at Wetzlar. They strove to make finer and finer grain emulsions as you suggest with great success, and with a view to eventually enlarging the negative to large size prints with little or no grain. They missed the business opportunity of going the other way and making big things small...(Microfiche)

 

The relevance of this history here is that Leica have an opportunity today to look at a wider picture of what their users need and comprehend this as accessories or incorporate into an eventual M10. The concept of a GPS accessory is clearly not something that Andy, Bill, Jaapv and Andy (Adan) RedBaron feel a need for....however many people have expressed an interest for such a device.

 

Some people have a strong view that the basic camera should be simplistic in nature and I guess I agree to a point. I still would like to optionally select an Auto shutter speed capability for example .

[andybarton]

So, Leica (or someone) were making film in Wetzlar in the 1960s? I never knew that.

 

Maybe they'd like to start making it again

 

I am surprised that this club and the fact that Leica were making film isn't better known. Neither show up on a Google search, but maybe that's because I am not searching for the correct string.

[Guest BigSplash]

So, Leica (or someone) were making film in Wetzlar in the 1960s? I never knew that.

 

Maybe they'd like to start making it again

 

I did not say that, nor even imply it. They worked with photochemists just like today Leica work with Kodak and software companies. This is smart as it keeps the company up to speed with technology.

 

They then need to understand how to relate technology with what their clients will pay for and look for emergent market segments. As you know Leitz started as a microscope company, moved into photography, sports optics, microelectronic kit for the semiconductor industry and Geophysical instruments.

 

I hope the same level of attention to being a successful market (client) driven technology company is embraced by today's Leica Camera AG.

[earleygallery]

This is very exciting indeed!

 

In this thread;

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/112250-sensor-breakthrough-where-we-headed-2.html

 

there is a link to this story;

 

Open-source camera could revolutionize photography (w/ Video)

 

in which there is the exciting prospect of future camera firmware technology linking in with photo sharing websites to recognise a scene/subject as you are about to photograph it, then override what you're doing automatically to replicate what the best rated photos look like!

 

From the above article;

 

Yet another idea is to have the camera communicate with computers on a network, such as a photo-hosting service on the Web. Imagine, Levoy says, if the camera could analyze highly-rated pictures of a subject in an online gallery before snapping the shutter for another portrait of the same subject. The camera could then offer advice (or just automatically decide) on the settings that will best replicate the same skin tone or shading. By communicating with the network, the camera could avoid taking a ghastly picture.

 

I can see how built in GPS capability would really help us all become much better photographers. Indeed if the web image was 'open source' it could just copy/paste it into your memory card to save you the bother of photographing anything at all!

[andybarton]

I did not say that, nor even imply it.

 

My apologies. I misunderstood your post.

[Guest BigSplash]

 

Yet another idea is to have the camera communicate with computers on a network, such as a photo-hosting service on the Web. Imagine, Levoy says, if the camera could analyze highly-rated pictures of a subject in an online gallery before snapping the shutter for another portrait of the same subject. The camera could then offer advice (or just automatically decide) on the settings that will best replicate the same skin tone or shading. By communicating with the network, the camera could avoid taking a ghastly picture.

 

I can see how built in GPS capability would really help us all become much better photographers. Indeed if the web image was 'open source' it could just copy/paste it into your memory card to save you the bother of photographing anything at all!

 

That is cool. Imagine the camera could do away with the complex processing electronics, it could use a cheap small sensor and yet yield photos taken with say a Limhof or Hasselblad. This is the ideal approach for those that want to keep the Leica simple yet obtain great images........

 

I could get so excited about this . The GPS device could take the shot without even a lens or a shutter....just point, shoot and hope that the image is in an archive somewhere. Now that is what I call photography James.

[Bo_Lorentzen]

OK Guys, Seriously.

 

I don't particularly agree with Frank about everything Leica.

 

But this thread have taken a bizarre turn here.

 

The ORIGINAL question was HOW, to assign a location coordinate to a image, using ANY tool which would work with a M9 camera. There were no infering that Leica should be redesigned to include GPS or that Leica should make a GPS device.

 

Somehow strangely this have become a argument about whether Leica should (or should not) make or include such a device in the camera.

 

And there is a strange tone inferring the skills or whatever of photographers who chose to use a tool to record position rather than remembering or writing in a little black book. (Moleskin is naturally the only choice for the real photographers )

 

My M9 is not the same as my M6 or my CL for that matter, both the M8 and M9 records exposure data to the file, the cameras record the time of day to the file. since we are on these cameras no longer dealing with silver halide negatives, it makes perfectly sense for some of us to also record location data.

 

I want to learn, but must admit that I am struggeling to see how this makes me less of a Leica photographer and artist, compared to using a very un-leica like RAW file.. seriously, it this logic I am seeing here suggest we instead start saving maybe BMP or TIFF files.. well actually better yet.. lets use film.

 

I DO use a device sometimes when working and know how it works, it surely does not make my pictures better, and I don't expect it to, its a tool. Turning on a GPS in the morning (the size of a screw-driver handle) stuffing it in my camera bag and in the evening merging the GPS with my images, do NOT detract from my photography, and do NOT distract me durring the day, one could say stopping to make a note in a book might, though personally I find using a written record to remember what I was doing on some shots to be hugely helpful.. I support the book idea, but I also use a GPS. sorry.

 

My 2 cents worth... Your mileage are sure to vary.

 

.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest BigSplash]

Bo it seems to me that we may not agree on everything with respect to Leica but I do believe that we agree that there is a real need for certain accessories that widen the ease of use (and therefore appeal) of a Leica M as a system camera.

• The GPS accessory is one item.
  
• You referred to (and I agree) that the 60's catalogue showed many items for close up and other extensions to the photographic possibilities of a M camera.
  

I would very much like Solms and ourselves in this forum to think what we need and would optionally like to buy. I also find it amasing that people seem to object to useful (well engineered and type approved ) accessories being made available for a Leica M digital.

 

Why is it that iPhone is levering its position with 4000 (I think is the latest count) applications to support an item that has similar functionality to its competitors?

 

Do people like the idea of a functional core unit being adaptable to many situations?