Would a Digital M mount from Zeiss etc,, make Leica camera quality better?

[eleskin]

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I believe that if other camera companies made more affordable M mount digital cameras (a digital CL made by Zeiss, Voigtlander, etc,, Even Leica) it would pressure Leica to be at the top of the list of manufacturers and quality control would improve. I keep reading annoying articles about this or that problem in a $7,000 M9 (we had this with the M8 too) that should not be for this price.

 

I keep wondering if a digital M should be built the way the M8/9 are (if it makes practical sense) are. Do we really need cameras like this with top plates milled out of solid brass? They are beautiful to hold and look at, but in a few years, although the body will be there in nice shape, the sensor, etc, will be outdated. Maybe a camera that is designed to last 5 years or so makes much more sense . If there were a digital M camera that had a carbon fiber shell that was the size of the M5 and looked "ugly" I would buy it! All I want is the latest sensor, processor and a shell that we call a camera. This thing is now a computer, and that should be reflected in what its true price should be.

 

The lenses are a different story! I buy them for keeps, and want them to last longer than i will. I own quite a few Leica lenses, and they continue to amaze me, especially the used Noctilux bought this year (solid last forever build and amazing image quality!).

 

If people want to pay and be seen with an overbuilt M digital, that is fine with me, but I would rather buy an ugly looking M mount for $3,000 or so that will do the job for a few years and then I would buy another more updated one without asking the question where did my money go?

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[Jager]

Kind of a throwaway M, huh? Well, a couple things to think about...

 

That "overbuilt" body on the M9 doesn't come anywhere close to costing $4,000. The vast majority of the manufacturing expense is incorporated within the electronic components inside. So it's not like you're going to get a Leica at the price point you suggest merely by going to a cheap body.

 

More importantly, there are a bunch of us who very much appreciate Leica's efforts to continue with their longstanding ethos of manufacturing excellence. There is a tactile quality associated with fine gear. Some of us - probably including most of Leica's current customer base - have no desire to buy a cheapened M.

 

I do agree that the real lifespan of Leica's digital products is vastly shorter than it was for their analog film cameras. But it's like that for all the camera manufacturers, not just Leica. Not much to be done about that, short of deliberately choosing to step off the merry-go-round - something that most of us won't do.

[brainiac37]

A cheaper digital M-mount camera (not the GF1 + adapter though, it seems, from the various discussions about wide-angle IQ) would be nice. I agree that the Leica lenses are the primary asset of the system.

 

But, actually, I don't mind paying "market price" for the M9. Given the long waiting list, it's reasonable to say that at $7k, there are plenty of takers. I just wish that the electronics would have the same mechanical and optical quality and reliability as the film M's. Having multiple firmware or hardware issues is either a sign that the product wasn't ready for release, or the electrical/firmware engineering department needs to be upgraded (read: fired and new people hired...at least, the engineering managers).

 

My BMW 335i shows a similar pattern. The twin-turbo engine, the suspension, and the handling are just awesome, but it's been in the shop 4 times for software/firmware reasons. What a shame.

[marknorton]

It's a sobering thought that one of the selling points for the Leica S2 is that Leica guarantee parts availability for 6 years. Not great for a mid $20's k investment.

[eleskin]

That 6 year thing is really scary! That proves my point that these things at maximum are only worth $4000 USD to me (M9/M8). Lenses are much more worth the investment than ANY camera body!!!!!!!

[eleskin]

Mark,

 

6 years tells me Leica is unsure this thing will sell into the future!!! Not a good sign at all!!

 

Ed

[hoppyman]

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Perhaps you need to ask Zeiss or Cosina. If they had the ability to design and produce a digital M to your concept and could get it to market at the price you want and thought that there was a sufficient demand for it, I guess you could buy one.

 

Regarding quality control, I think it is a mistake to make any judgement based on a tiny sampling on one forum, that represents only a fraction of Leica users of course.

 

Seems to me that thousands of people do think the M9 is worth the money and thousands more just want to get theirs delivered.

[dpattinson]

It's a sobering thought that one of the selling points for the Leica S2 is that Leica guarantee parts availability for 6 years. Not great for a mid $20's k investment.

 

Hmmm... do you think it would be worth repairing after more than 6 years of pro use? I mean economic to repair, when the replacement model would have been out for say 2-3 years by then... 6 years seems a reasonable 'guaranteed' lifespan.

[dpattinson]

Mark,

 

6 years tells me Leica is unsure this thing will sell into the future!!! Not a good sign at all!!

 

Ed

 

Of course, that's 6 years from date of purchase I assume... which could be say 3 years from now assuming they don't belt out a replacement in less time than that

[brainiac37]

Regarding quality control, I think it is a mistake to make any judgement based on a tiny sampling on one forum, that represents only a fraction of Leica users of course.

 

I believe that there are a lot of happy M9 users out there not having any issues. I offer up two points:

 

- That is no consolation to the people having problem with their M9. From my point of view, if the probability is so small, then why is it happening to me? I've never won the lottery or anything else that has to do with luck. Consequently, this makes me think that the quality issue is larger than just a tiny amount. Furthermore, I had my M9 "repaired", and now it's acting up again with the same problem. So, it's not a freak defect that just needed to be repaired/replaced.

 

- LR reported that supposedly 4000 M9's have been made so far. Assuming that, a 1% fallout would be 40 people. Just based on a few forums alone, I think there are way more than 40 people having problems with their M9. Once you start getting to 2-3% fallout in the field, that's a serious amount, because that number already does not include the units that failed factory screening and test.

[Sandokan]

I think it all depends upon how much the body's manufacturing costs add to the total bill, compared to the development costs, marketing, electronics, sensor and assembly costs. I certainly want "my camera" to go through the QC department and to be individually checked.

 

I would guess that all of these account for far more of the final costs than the metal used for the body and the extra clout you get in a "mugging" situation is worth its weight in gold.