zlatkob Posted December 9, 2009 Share #41 Posted December 9, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Noah's idea of putting the adjustments under the baseplate sounds perfect to me. set the camera, make a few dial selections and button it up, then focus on photographing. VERY appealing. . Hide the buttons? One man's "very appealing" is another man's "ergonomic nightmare"! Bo, some people have stated that it IS about getting rid of the display, as they do NOT see its advantages. I do agree, however, that the issue is keeping it simple. But this quest for simplicity seems to take a strange, counterintuitive, anti-ergonomic turn now and then. For example, when changing the ISO, what could be simpler than accessing it directly via the ISO button — a key feature omitted from the M8 but added to the M9. Those who yearn for the simplicity of a a film camera, a digital M that is as much as possible like an analog M, forget the totally-NOT-simple workflow-interrupting two-handed process of changing ISO in a film camera, i.e. rewinding and replacing the film. In some ways, digital cameras are much simpler. The LCD, like the ISO button, is a great addition to the world of photography — it simplifies things. If it distracts, that can only be the photographer's fault. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Hi zlatkob, Take a look here M9.2 /10 No Display Half Price?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
zlatkob Posted December 9, 2009 Share #42 Posted December 9, 2009 And it's not as if it hasn't been tried. Thanks for those photos. Great examples of how NOT to design things today! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted December 9, 2009 Share #43 Posted December 9, 2009 The ISO button on the M9 is a huge improvement over the M8. However, a round dial placed where the MP rewind knob is would be excellent, and would provide the added advantage of being able to see what ISO is set at a glance even if the camera is off or asleep. A simple lift-to-turn locking mechanism would mean you could set the ISO very quickly but your setting would also be very secure and would be extremely unlikely to change accidentally. And even if it did, you'd see that it had changed. I also want the battery display and frame counter back on the top plate. The only setting I proposed should be under the baseplate is the WB, which few photographers use with RAW anyway, but it's nice to have for certain situations or to set a manual WB. Having said that, I don't think I've ever changed the WB setting off of auto, since I always shoot RAW. I'll concede that it may not work for everyone, but this wouldn't be a camera that would appeal to everyone anyway. And no one is saying this would replace the M9. It could be an alternative, like the MP is an alternative to the M7. The menu-driven system could be done away with by making an all-raw camera with manual ISO and WB dials and this could make it more difficult to make accidental changes to your settings. I work under tough situations. On a recent protest assignment, while dodging tear gas and rubber bullets, I accidentally hit buttons and changed important settings. A few times I changed the ISO, once I switched to JPEG only, once I somehow switched to auto ISO and I lost frames since it screwed up some exposures. So this isn't just a matter of aesthetics. By the way, zlatkob, I fully admit that it's my fault that I don't have the discipline to not check the LCD:D And it's all just hypothetical. My second M9 is arriving today:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blatent liar Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share #44 Posted December 9, 2009 Hide the buttons? One man's "very appealing" is another man's LCD The LCD, like the ISO button, is a great addition to the world of photography — it simplifies things. If it distracts, that can only be the photographer's fault. As long as we are going about 'distracting' from the initial inquiry, lets digress a moment: A digital M which is made from unobtanium, and can theoretically cost less than the current version would be appealing to very few of us. The mischaracterization that the horde is scheming to take away your LCD, is not the exercise; Nor is it to make an ergonomic nightmare. Just for fun let's assume a new M6 sized Digital secretly came to market without a display, It has a manual ISO dial a'la MP, Zero JPG, faster Processing, Marginally lower Noise, 10x Battery life, and an HDMI connector for Video Review, Would you buy/want one for 4500. USD? I would; And I would still keep my M9, and every so often look at the display to change my ISO. gasp. -M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted December 9, 2009 Share #45 Posted December 9, 2009 It's as good an idea as an airplane without any instrument displays. A REAL man just flies a plane with a stick and a throttle. None of this sissy stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 9, 2009 Share #46 Posted December 9, 2009 Black and white sensor too, of course... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted December 9, 2009 Share #47 Posted December 9, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Black and white sensor too, of course... Nope. One of the main reasons I shoot digital, besides cost and turnaround time, is that I can prepare photographs in B&W for myself and color for clients or my agency. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blatent liar Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share #48 Posted December 9, 2009 Or a Television without a Display? Yes I'll take two, as long as it is made in Germany and has a red dot. -M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blatent liar Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share #49 Posted December 9, 2009 Noah OK, so they keep B&W JPG...? -M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted December 9, 2009 Share #50 Posted December 9, 2009 Noah OK, so they keep B&W JPG...? -M Why? You can easily convert the RAW files to B&W, and with better results than an in-camera conversion. This camera, which of course will never exist, should be raw only. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted December 9, 2009 Share #51 Posted December 9, 2009 The LCD, like the ISO button, is a great addition to the world of photography — it simplifies things. If it distracts, that can only be the photographer's fault. It's funny how the "digital-MP" idea always seems to bring out the comedians (where are you James?) and the nerds who just can't imagine what life would be like without an LCD. I don't understand what is so threatening about the idea? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted December 9, 2009 Share #52 Posted December 9, 2009 Not threatening, merely idiotic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted December 9, 2009 Share #53 Posted December 9, 2009 The mischaracterization that the horde is scheming to take away your LCD... Now that's a mischaracterization for sure. And you mis-quoted my "ergonomic nightmare" sentence. I've addressed the topic of the proposed camera and written quite a lot about it. I've not written that anyone is scheming to "take away" anything from an existing camera or from the one and only future M. Leica can build more than one camera at time, so if they ever built the LCD-less camera, they could certainly still build plenty of cameras with LCDs at the same time. There's not the slightest fear of anyone "taking away" anything. We simply disagree on this and we both don't know what the real design philosophy is. It is true that neither one of us knows what the real design philosophy is. However, the prominent LCD on the back of all diigital Ms is rather strong evidence that the designers do in fact value the LCD and find it to be consistent with the Leica design philosophy. I don't understand what is so threatening about the idea? Nothing at all is threatening. Just saying that it's a really bad idea. Many reasons already stated above. And it's all just hypothetical. My second M9 is arriving today:D Hypothetical for sure. Congratulations!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted December 9, 2009 Share #54 Posted December 9, 2009 One used to be able to buy Polaroid backs for one's old Hasselblads used in the studio to check lighting, etc. I think it would be a great idea if Leica produced an M digital camera with NO LCD or other silly modern contrivances. They could then provide a "Polaroid" back for the camera, which would work with modern Fujifilm instant film, and you could check your results in an analog format. I imagine they'd have to include some sort of thing that hung around your neck where you could affix your Polaroids and some sort of numbering, coding system. I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted December 9, 2009 Share #55 Posted December 9, 2009 Nothing at all is threatening. Just saying that it's a really bad idea. Many reasons already stated above. Bad idea for whom? I think we get the message that you like the LCD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted December 9, 2009 Share #56 Posted December 9, 2009 If you hate it so much, paint yours over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted December 9, 2009 Share #57 Posted December 9, 2009 For example, when changing the ISO, what could be simpler than accessing it directly via the ISO button — a key feature omitted from the M8 but added to the M9. Those who yearn for the simplicity of a a film camera, a digital M that is as much as possible like an analog M, forget the totally-NOT-simple workflow-interrupting two-handed process of changing ISO in a film camera, i.e. rewinding and replacing the film. In some ways, digital cameras are much simpler. And what could be simpler than the backside iso dial of the M6/7? Just because I have a roll of film in the camera doesn't mean I can't switch the iso mid-stream if I really want to. This has nothing to do with film vs digital. Sitting here looking at my M7 I have to admit that would be a pretty awesome digital camera. All it would really need is a different style frame counter and maybe a button one pushes for sensor cleaning. But of course this will never happen, so don't get so wound up about it Zlatkob. It's just fun for some of us to muse. Nobody's taking your LCD away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted December 9, 2009 Share #58 Posted December 9, 2009 You could have an LCD-free camera with a wireless heads-up display worn as a contact lens over your cornea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blatent liar Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share #59 Posted December 9, 2009 But of course this will never happen, so don't get so wound up about it Zlatkob. It's just fun for some of us to muse. Nobody's taking your LCD away. Jeesh!... at this point it may make sense to fly to NJ just to remove the bloody LCD, as it is clearly the only way to see. Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey. Close your eyes relax . -Max Out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted December 9, 2009 Share #60 Posted December 9, 2009 But of course this will never happen, so don't get so wound up about it Zlatkob. It's just fun for some of us to muse. Nobody's taking your LCD away. I guess the internet doesn't convey that I'm having fun too. :) As I mentioned above, I'm not worried about anyone taking anything away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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