simonpg Posted November 24, 2009 Share #1 Posted November 24, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) While looking for a mint M8 (the additional features of the M8.2 are of little benefit to me), how can a buyer have confidence that the sensor has none of the issues that originally arose (beyond the purple blacks / IR filter issue) among some of the early production units. Here I'm referring to the appearance of green banding and some vertical light streaks in low light situations. I understand that Leica recalled cameras and refitted sensors; angry customers sent their cameras for a sensor refit etc.. If this applied to early production units, is there a serial number point at which a buyer is safer? But, while I'm looking at a mint M8 with every item originally shipped with it and its possible production date was about 6 months after the first shipments went out; AND a genuine seller has never seen a problem in his pictures, how can I be sure there are not sensor issues hiding and just waiting to be discovered? Maybe this question is impossible to answer. BUT, many of you have had your M8 cameras for some time now and know other M8 owners. Were the sensor issues that required a sensor refit (rather than the firmware updates) were they blindingly obvious to any owner? Did Leica identify batches and do a re-call? Or, if the sensor had the issues that required a refit, they were just obvious from day one and any owner would run screaming back to his (or her) dealer? While the camera I am considering sounds, distance prevents me form taking it for a test shoot. The seller is a dealer and is offering a warranty, but all the same I don't want the risk of an unhappy purchase. Or, is it just better to avoid the M8 and hunt for an 8.2 or an M8 with evidence that it has had a sensor replacement - i.e. get one that had the problem identified and fixed by Leica knowing any sensor issue has been resolved. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Hi simonpg, Take a look here M8 caveats. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted November 24, 2009 Share #2 Posted November 24, 2009 There was just one recall, series 3100000 to 3101500 to add a mass connection to prevent high ISO banding and some rare defects. No angry customers sending them in, not for a sensor refit either.Leica will still do that in a one week turnaround, should you manage to find a camera that needs it (extremely unlikely). Other than that just individual things like on any brand camera. There was never a sensor refit program. All M8 and M8.2 cameras are identical in that respect. The only thing you may fiind is a green band in some, rather exceptional lighting situations ( blown highlight exactly on the frame edge), but all M8 and M8.2 cameras do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario Arioldi Posted November 24, 2009 Share #3 Posted November 24, 2009 In the Leica Maker Note of the exif there is an indication of the installed version of the main electronic components (CCD sensor, CCD board, controllerr board and MC16 micro controller). The original CCD board was replaced with a new version at the very beginning because of the banding issue and a second time in the summer of 2008 due to a change in the supply. It should be then identified with ID n°1 or ID n°2 in the exif in order to be sure that it is not one of the unmodified defective units (ID n°0). This for instance is a cut and paste from the ExifTool reading of one of my M8 file: Lens Type : Elmarit-M 24mm f/2.8 ASPH.; 24/35mm frame lines engaged External Sensor Brightness Value: 6.33 Measured LV : 8.12 Approximate F Number : 3.0 Camera Temperature : 17 Color Temperature : 0 UV/IR Filter Correction : Active CCD Version : 0 CCD Board Version : 1 Controller Board Version : 0 M16C Version : 0 Cheers, Ario Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 24, 2009 Share #4 Posted November 24, 2009 That is incorrect. The original version 1 motherboard was replaced by a sucessor mid-2007 iirc the date, due to a change by the parts supplier. The sensor remained the same and there was no performance or reliability difference between the motherboards. It was extensively discussed here in this forum, with one member threatening to sue Leica because he was not informed of the "upgrade" (!). Needless to say that the hoohah died down when it turned out it made not one whit of difference. The original recall action entailed a soldered connection being installed.It may well be Leica identifies that in EXIF to keep track, that I don't dispute. Later, in May 2007 we had the T2 upgrade, where Leica replaced a suspect transistor for every camera coming in from one small series. It had caused sudden death in a small number of cameras because a batch was out of spec.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario Arioldi Posted November 24, 2009 Share #5 Posted November 24, 2009 My understanding is that the original CCD board version, n°0, was replaced with version n°1 immediately after the launch of M8 in December 2006. Cameras produced after the second change of the CCD board, for reasons due to the supply, have the version n°2 installed. I may have confused the date for this second change (2008 instead of 2007). Cheers, Ario Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 24, 2009 Share #6 Posted November 24, 2009 You are not alone, even at the time Mark Norton was unsure what happened with the recall: This was the board that was supposedly replaced by the hardware recall and we understood at the time that the sensor was not being replaced. However, the sensor is soldered to this board, you can see the rows of soldered connections (4 * 15 pins), so it’s not clear exactly what was done. I recall seeing an image of the soldered mass connection somewhere, but I cannot find it that easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario Arioldi Posted November 24, 2009 Share #7 Posted November 24, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just to make myself clear, I'm not arguing about the extent of the change, I'm not in a position to do so, I'm only referring to a possible way to identify the installed version of the CCD board. Cheers, Ario Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 24, 2009 Share #8 Posted November 24, 2009 No, a discussion is not arguing Twenty years from now Leica historians will be referring to this thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted November 24, 2009 Share #9 Posted November 24, 2009 My CCD Circuit Board ID is Rev.3 (This is a replacement camera) BTW, PhotoME is a powerful freeware to read EXIF data, including Manufacturer Notes. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/104744-m8-caveats/?do=findComment&comment=1129239'>More sharing options...
Ario Arioldi Posted November 24, 2009 Share #10 Posted November 24, 2009 This is only due the the software used to read the exif. I've seen the same happening with my own camera exif data: the ID N°0 in ExifTool is red as ID n°1 by an other exif reader I was using in Windows, N°1 is red as M°2 and so on. Cheers, Ario Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted November 24, 2009 Share #11 Posted November 24, 2009 This is only due the the software used to read the exif.I've seen the same happening with my own camera exif data: the ID N°0 in ExifTool is red as ID n°1 by an other exif reader I was using in Windows, N°1 is red as M°2 and so on. Cheers, Ario Ario, My other M8 is Rev. 2 (produced in Feb. 2008) and the very first camera was Rev. 0 and become Rev. 1 after T2 upgrade... Always using the same software... IMHO there're Rev. 0, Rev. 1, Rev. 2 and Rev. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario Arioldi Posted November 24, 2009 Share #12 Posted November 24, 2009 Ario, My other M8 is Rev. 2 (produced in Feb. 2008) and the very first camera was Rev. 0 and become Rev. 1 after T2 upgrade... Always using the same software... IMHO there're Rev. 0, Rev. 1, Rev. 2 and Rev. 3 Can you try to read the exif from the same camera you have shown above with ExifTool or with CornerFix, just to cross check. Cheers, Ario Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted November 24, 2009 Share #13 Posted November 24, 2009 Can you try to read the exif from the same camera you have shown above with ExifTool or with CornerFix, just to cross check.Cheers, Ario Ario, I suppose you're right Cornerfix 1.3.0.3 says: Leica MakerNotes Selected user profile: 4 Camera Serial Number: 3196098 White Balance Preset: Auto or manual Lens Id: Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21mm f/4 ASPH. Frame Selector Position: 24/35mm frame lines engaged Blue Dot Brightness: 9.191406 TTL Brightness: 10.078125 Leica Estimated Aperture: f/4.0 CornerFix Calculated Aperture: f/4.0 System temperature: 16 C Color temperature: Not Recorded UVIR Correction: Not Active CCD Sensor Id(?): 0 CCD Board Id(?): 2 Controller Board Id(?): 0 M16C micro-controller Id(?): 0 Unique Image Id: 895 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpg Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share #14 Posted November 24, 2009 Many thanks gentlemen. So, in summary: essentially the M8 sensor itself was fine (except any failures unique to specific cameras) in general. The non-firmware and non-IR cut filter related image issues were caused by the mass / circuit board the CCD was attached to. Therefore even today any affected camera can have that replaced still. While EXIF data indicates if that board was upgraded. serial numbers above 3101500 are likely safe from that problem. I suppose that sums it up - OK? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 24, 2009 Share #15 Posted November 24, 2009 Yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trs Posted November 24, 2009 Share #16 Posted November 24, 2009 And chances are that all first batch cameras were fixed as well. I can't imagine who would not send in the camera for fix. If any left would be demo cameras by dealers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted November 24, 2009 Share #17 Posted November 24, 2009 Simon, after your research and thread replies, you should rest assured that a mint M8 is unlikely to prove faulty. The vendor's guarantee should also give you peace of mind. Failing that, this forum is rich with members' knowledge and experience and advice. Leica has a reputation for looking after its customers; witness the Digilux 2 sensor saga! Few makers offer that level of service long after warranties have expired. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted November 24, 2009 Share #18 Posted November 24, 2009 Simon, after your research and thread replies, you should rest assured that a mint M8 is unlikely to prove faulty. The vendor's guarantee should also give you peace of mind. Failing that, this forum is rich with members' knowledge and experience and advice. Leica has a reputation for looking after its customers; witness the Digilux 2 sensor saga! Few makers offer that level of service long after warranties have expired. +1:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpg Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share #19 Posted November 24, 2009 Again my thanks gentlemen for your great help. Your sentiments about Leica's attitude are very valid. Recently I noticed my 50mm 'cron-M now 6 years old under-focused at infinity (true very distant infinity) by about 1mm turn of the barrel. When I emailed Leica in Germany - they said "we have your records here so have no fear we will correct it under warranty". They copied in our local importer who equally responded wel. Nut while this is great to see in today's world of poor customer relations, when we buy premium goods, we rightly expect premium performance and service. On a lighter note - poor Leica - they must have the fussiest customers on earth!! :) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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