Zone focusing on X1

[Guest stnami]

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If you need to go down this path heaps better to learn to do this visually so you understand the distance relationship between your subject and foreground middleground, position in composed image etc.

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[peterb]

I like the idea of zone focusing with the X1 but the discussion seems to be making an excuse to justify paying $2000 camera with disappointingly slow AF* for its price (albeit with the technically best files for a camera of its size).

 

Plus according to Sean's review the distance scale beyond 2m is imprecise (but still good enough and can be improved with firmware tweaks).

 

But the settings all each time the camera needs to be re-booted or woken up from a digital sleep. (Again something that might be addressed with a firmware tweak).

 

And I still wonder whether the image created by the 24mm Elmarit at f8 or f5.6 is any different than say the 20mm Lumix.

 

*The explanation of lower frame rates makes sense. Just too bad it couldn't have been implemented in an otherwise superb camera.

[pappde]

For anyone who wants to copy SEAN`s settings for a wedding at 7 feet with the LEICA X1 at F8

your DOF will be 4.14 feet ( 1,34 metres) till 16.9 feet (5,15 metres).

 

This will save you from experimenting and shows you the advantage in DOF (or disadvantage depending how you see this) of a smaller sensor than full frame.

At weddings though the light is mostly not very good indoors so I would consider a wider aperture and other distances settings. This is why I would like to see LEICA to increase their MF distance pre-sets at least to 5 metres in no more than 1 metre steps. (like the RICOH people do, and they really know what a street shooter want with manual focus and distance scales in order to be fast with their focus)

In short , there are good ways to go around slow AF but you have to know well your theory about pre distance settings and DOF scales otherwise you are LOST

I am not as known as SEAN REID and maybe quite direct in my words but you can sleep on these words and come back to me if you buy the X1 and start using it in case the software does not change from the pre-production units as reveiwed by Sean Reid. I don`t want to bash the camera ( I am looking for a well worked out concept like the LEICA X1 ) but I want to help people with my knowledge and avoid disapointments among potential buyers. Again soccer mom with this camera in her LUIS VUTTON bag will never be disapointed because she is shooting with a LEICA but those people that drop 2000 Dollar for this instrument should get what the price stands for and that is a tool for photographers . From what I have seen it this not achieved yet.

 

Don`t start saying now that I should buy a RICOH and shut up because in the RICOH camera`s there are also enough issues that keep me from buying it but I want a DIGITAL KONICA HEXAR AF and gets frustrated by non delivery from the industry.

Sorry for that.

Well, I never would have thought that my question regarding zone focusing will elicit such raw emotions! Shoot first, ask questions later. It is fairly entertaining just reading posts on this forum and see how some people are ready to give with both barrels. After all, is all this not for fun and furthering our knowledge?

BTW if nothing else, just the furor about the X1, convinced me that it is a piece of equipment worth looking out for.

[sean_reid]

Thanks Sean ,

Bounced flash is soo much better than "straight in the face" (the light must have something to "bounce" on ofcourse)

Any response re MF distance scale to be expected in final LEICA x1 version Sean ?

Regards

Hexar

 

No news on that yet.

 

Cheers,

[sean_reid]

If you need to go down this path heaps better to learn to do this visually so you understand the distance relationship between your subject and foreground middleground, position in composed image etc.

 

As you must know, I agree strongly. Experiment and learn from the pictures.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

I like the idea of zone focusing with the X1 but the discussion seems to be making an excuse to justify paying $2000 camera with disappointingly slow AF* for its price (albeit with the technically best files for a camera of its size).

 

Plus according to Sean's review the distance scale beyond 2m is imprecise (but still good enough and can be improved with firmware tweaks).

 

But the settings all each time the camera needs to be re-booted or woken up from a digital sleep. (Again something that might be addressed with a firmware tweak).

 

And I still wonder whether the image created by the 24mm Elmarit at f8 or f5.6 is any different than say the 20mm Lumix.

 

*The explanation of lower frame rates makes sense. Just too bad it couldn't have been implemented in an otherwise superb camera.

 

Hi Peter,

 

I haven't seen anyone try to justify the cost of the camera one way or another in this thread but maybe I missed something. We now know that its AF speed is typical for a compact digital camera, that MF needs work (the variable aperture) and that zone focus works well (but the scale needs more detail beyond 2 meters). The purchase/value decision is up to the individual.

 

The frame rate isn't a question of Leica's implementation per se. They had to work with an existing sensor and those are the specs for the fps. I suppose if they someday make their own sensors... Otherwise, its a question of when and if Sony or another supplier creates an APS-C sensor which is optimized for contrast-detection AF.

 

Image quality comparisons to come.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[thrid]

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At weddings though the light is mostly not very good indoors so I would consider a wider aperture and other distances settings. This is why I would like to see LEICA to increase their MF distance pre-sets at least to 5 metres in no more than 1 metre steps. (like the RICOH people do, and they really know what a street shooter want with manual focus and distance scales in order to be fast with their focus)

In short , there are good ways to go around slow AF but you have to know well your theory about pre distance settings and DOF scales otherwise you are LOST

 

And that right there is the problem with the X1. Leica built a camera that gets a lot of things right and then screwed it up by lifting the mediocre manual focus menu from the D-Lux 4.

 

As has been already been mentioned the X1 focus scale only goes to 2m and the next marked distance is infinity. I haven't read the X1 manual, yet, but it doesn't appear that you can very easily set focus to distances beyond 2 meters, like 5 or 10 meters for example.

 

I asked a Leica rep about this and their answer was that setting focus to 2m was sufficient, because the camera uses a 24mm lens on an APS-C sensor, thus providing generous DOF. That may hold true if you are shooting at f8 - 16 all the time, but regardless it's a pretty poor and simplistic answer that implies a disturbing lack of shooting knowledge. I expect better from a company like Leica, because Ricoh who makes copy and fax machines got it right

 

Ricoh executed scale focusing quite brilliantly in their cameras (GRD III etc) and their setup puts everyone else to shame.

[jsrockit]

I asked a Leica rep about this and their answer was that setting focus to 2m was sufficient, because the camera uses a 24mm lens on an APS-C sensor, thus providing generous DOF. That may hold true if you are shooting at f8 - 16 all the time, but regardless it's a pretty poor and simplistic answer that implies a disturbing lack of shooting knowledge.

 

I think the rep was right in stating that in most situations... but it does sound kind of lazy as well.

[thrid]

I think the rep was right in stating that in most situations... but it does sound kind of lazy as well.

 

In a sense he is right, but it is a pretty lame. A 24mm on an APS-C body has a lot of DOF, but the 6mm (?) on the GRD has even more DOF, yet that camera offers far more extensive controls in this area.

 

I guess I just expected more from Leica. Especially considering how much they want for the X1.

[sean_reid]

And that right there is the problem with the X1. Leica built a camera that gets a lot of things right and then screwed it up by lifting the mediocre manual focus menu from the D-Lux 4.

 

As has been already been mentioned the X1 focus scale only goes to 2m and the next marked distance is infinity. I haven't read the X1 manual, yet, but it doesn't appear that you can very easily set focus to distances beyond 2 meters, like 5 or 10 meters for example.

 

I asked a Leica rep about this and their answer was that setting focus to 2m was sufficient, because the camera uses a 24mm lens on an APS-C sensor, thus providing generous DOF. That may hold true if you are shooting at f8 - 16 all the time, but regardless it's a pretty poor and simplistic answer that implies a disturbing lack of shooting knowledge. I expect better from a company like Leica, because Ricoh who makes copy and fax machines got it right

 

Ricoh executed scale focusing quite brilliantly in their cameras (GRD III etc) and their setup puts everyone else to shame.

 

I don't agree with the rep's answer at all. No amount of DOF will magically make peak res. appear at ten feet when the camera is focused at six feet.

 

I've discussed a revision of the focus scale, in detail, with Leica and I hope to see them improve it in firmware so that there are clear markings for distances beyond 2 meters. Two meters may be OK for a small sensor camera (with its huge DOF) but it is definitely not enough for a camera with an APS-C sensor.

 

Among the compact cameras, I think the Sigma DP cameras have the best executing of scale focusing.

 

My article on scale focusing is nearly done and should be published soon. Some may already be very familiar with everything it covers but there might be useful information for many others. It was written in response to a request made on this forum.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[thrid]

I don't agree with the rep's answer at all. No amount of DOF will magically make peak res. appear at ten feet when the camera is focused at six feet.

 

I've discussed a revision of the focus scale, in detail, with Leica and I hope to see them improve it in firmware so that there are clear markings for distances beyond 2 meters. Two meters may be OK for a small sensor camera (with its huge DOF) but it is definitely not enough for a camera with an APS-C sensor.

 

Let's hope they listen and extend this feature considerably.

 

I would like to see a focus scale with markings for 2, 5, 10 and maybe 15m

A numeric readout of the current focus distance

Graphic (bars, scale) display of DOF at given stop with in and out distance.

 

Snap focus (Camera sets focus to a predetermined distance).

[khanosu]

Sean has just published an excellent article on zone focusing. It is written very well, so definitely worth a read even if you are an old hand at zone focusing.

 

Take care!

 

Furrukh

[sean_reid]

Sean has just published an excellent article on zone focusing. It is written very well, so definitely worth a read even if you are an old hand at zone focusing.

 

Take care!

 

Furrukh

 

Thanks Furrukh,

 

That article came directly from a suggestion someone made recently on this forum. I thought about it awhile and decided it might be worth writing about it.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[streetshooter]

The important thing about Hyper Focal Distance is to remember that Infinity is a given.

Infinity stays at a constant at any given f stop.

 

So you adjust your f stop to get the near part of the image to be in focus. Changing f stops brings the near part of the DOF closer to or farther away from you...

 

I know that most of us know that but there are members that don't understand the use of this technique.

 

Tables are helpful because many cameras lost the aperture markings on the lens...

some engineering idiot forgot to put them on....

shooter

[ho_co]

streetwarrior--just fyi, no offense intended: proper term in English is "hyperfocal distance." It's an adjective modifying a noun.

 

 

In regard to wanting more distances shown on the focusing scale, I haven't seen the X1's distance scale, but is it that hard to divide the blank section mentally in two and then in two again?

 

If the furthest distance shown is 10 ft, then halfway from there to the infinity marker is 20 ft; and halving the distance from 20 ft to infinity, you get 40 ft.

 

We can usually figure out about where 8' is if the lens has a marker for 6' and another for 10', can't we? (I grew up with a manual-focus camera with engraved distances. Getting a camera with a built-in rangefinder was a big step forward for me. )

 

Seems to me (and as I said, I haven't held the camera) such interpolations should be pretty simple?

[sean_reid]

I haven't seen the X1's distance scale

 

See what you think after you've seen the scale and tried to work with it. Setting specific distances accurately beyond 2 meters is problematic with the current markings.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Ecaton]

streetwarrior--just fyi, no offense intended: proper term in English is "hyperfocal distance." It's an adjective modifying a noun.

 

 

In regard to wanting more distances shown on the focusing scale, I haven't seen the X1's distance scale, but is it that hard to divide the blank section mentally in two and then in two again?

 

If the furthest distance shown is 10 ft, then halfway from there to the infinity marker is 20 ft; and halving the distance from 20 ft to infinity, you get 40 ft.

 

We can usually figure out about where 8' is if the lens has a marker for 6' and another for 10', can't we? (I grew up with a manual-focus camera with engraved distances. Getting a camera with a built-in rangefinder was a big step forward for me. )

 

Seems to me (and as I said, I haven't held the camera) such interpolations should be pretty simple?

 

An English teacher, how valuable a contribution......::o:o

[barjohn]

If Sean says it is problematic, mere mortals may find it impossible. :)

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[ho_co]

See what you think after you've seen the scale and tried to work with it. Setting specific distances accurately beyond 2 meters is problematic with the current markings.

Hmm. I see what you mean if this is representative of production cameras (from http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/331/499/html/035.jpg).

 

Looks as if they need to move the infinity marker to the right to clarify 'end of scale,' and clean up the left end of the scale as well.

 

If infinity were at the full right, interpolating 12' and 24' probably wouldn't be a problem. But at least in this example, it's a pretty crude distance scale for a camera of this price.

 

Thanks for the forewarning, Sean!

 

But this sample is just wrong in other ways. It shows 3' as a greater distance than 1m, and 6' as almost identical to 2m. So if the only focusing scale problem your sample had was interpolating beyond six feet, at least yours was a much better implementation than this.

 

With each revelation, I'm getting more curious to see it in person.

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[sean_reid]

Hmm. I see what you mean if this is representative of production cameras (from http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/331/499/html/035.jpg).

 

Looks as if they need to move the infinity marker to the right to clarify 'end of scale,' and clean up the left end of the scale as well.

 

If infinity were at the full right, interpolating 12' and 24' probably wouldn't be a problem. But at least in this example, it's a pretty crude distance scale for a camera of this price.

 

Thanks for the forewarning, Sean!

 

But this sample is just wrong in other ways. It shows 3' as a greater distance than 1m, and 6' as almost identical to 2m. So if the only focusing scale problem your sample had was interpolating beyond six feet, at least yours was a much better implementation than this.

 

With each revelation, I'm getting more curious to see it in person.

 

The scale in that picture matches what I see on the screen of my test camera. The manual focus scale needs some more work and, hopefully, will look different on shipping cameras.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean