waileong Posted November 12, 2009 Share #21 Posted November 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Can one turn off the LCD screen and use an optical viewfinder to reduce the lag? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Hi waileong, Take a look here Sean Reid's X1 Part 2 Review is up. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sean_reid Posted November 12, 2009 Share #22 Posted November 12, 2009 See also the remarks under the headline "Shutter Response" here: Leica X1 Field Review Michael Reichmann estimates about a quarter of a second and then wonders why the Canon S90 has essentially no shutter lag at all. We recently learned from Stefan Daniel that the M9 has a higher shutter lag than the M8 (which in turn has a significantly higher shutter lag than analog Ms) due to the need of resetting the sensor before shooting and due to the M9 having more pixels than the M8. But we also learned that the high-end Nikon dSLRs have much better response times and obviously even the response time of the M9 is better than that of the X1 although it has more pixels. Michael and I will be talking about this, probably today. The lag comes in only at full press and the actual measured times are in my review. With a half pre-press the X1 actually shows slightly less lag than the GF1. Again, the MF problem (using the LCD) has to do with the way the camera controls aperture, not so much with the LCD itself. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 12, 2009 Share #23 Posted November 12, 2009 Can one turn off the LCD screen and use an optical viewfinder to reduce the lag? The lag can essentially be eliminated by slightly pressing the shutter down in advance of actually releasing it. I also think the full press lag may be able to be reduced as firmware moves towards production level. In these discussions, it really pays to be specific and we should be sure to differentiate half-press lag and full press lag. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted November 12, 2009 Share #24 Posted November 12, 2009 E-mail me and we'll get you sorted out. Cheers, Sean Was me not scrolling correctly - apologies and thanks - all ok now. Cheers dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted November 12, 2009 Share #25 Posted November 12, 2009 Michael and I will be talking about this, probably today. The lag comes in only at full press and the actual measured times are in my review. With a half pre-press the X1 actually shows slightly less lag than the GF1. I'm one of your subscribers and I know these numbers. The half pre-press lag in your review is very close to what Michael Reichmann reported, but it is significantly slower than that of the M8/M9 or that of the even faster Nikon dSLRs. That was my point. That the Panasonic is also slow compared to these doesn't make the X1 faster. Also, Reichmann says that the S90 has essentially no shutter lag, so there's obviously room for improvement. Again, the MF problem (using the LCD) has to do with the way the camera controls aperture, not so much with the LCD itself. I don't understand why you are saying this in reply to my posting. I didn't comment on this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradhusick Posted November 12, 2009 Share #26 Posted November 12, 2009 As a Leica shooter I prefer to shoot all my lenses wide open. I also prefer optical viewfinders, especially with a fixed focal length camera. I prefer to chimp the exposure with the LCD rather than use it for framing. How does the X1 perform with the aperture set to f/2.8 and the shutter on Auto in both center-point AF and manual focus modes? Is it quick? I don't like my camera to "control the aperture" for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted November 12, 2009 Share #27 Posted November 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Here's my review: Anybody who used the D-lux 4 will also be aware how unsecure the camera was in the hand without the grip. Presumably the X1 will be the same - so that'll probably be another $300. Initial reports suggest the screen is not particularly good. Never mind, you can always buy the optical viewfinder, and that definitely won't be cheap. So once you've bought the camera, the grip, the viewfinder, and presumably a leather case to protect it all, there isn't going to be a lot of change from $3000. Most of what it offers is not really a lot better than the competition, which is half the price. Conclusion: Poor value for money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradhusick Posted November 12, 2009 Share #28 Posted November 12, 2009 Marcus, we have all known what the prices are for a few months. Some may think it's too expensive, others may think it's cheap compared to buying a Leica prime lens. One can buy a new car for $10,000 or $1.5 million - it's good there are choices. Reviews are most useful when done by those with the camera in-hand. Let's hear more of them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted November 12, 2009 Share #29 Posted November 12, 2009 Sean, Good review! I'm looking forward to the noise section - I'm considering something in the X1 or EP-1 or GF-1 class, so if you have an EP-1, I'd be interested in how the X1 at maximum aperture compares to an EP-1 with the Panny pancake lens on it at max aperture. In other words, will the greater aperture of the Panny lens plus the IS on the EP-1 outweigh the X1's sensor advantage? Regards, Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted November 12, 2009 Share #30 Posted November 12, 2009 Another problem with MF operation: you don't have any indication on DoF at any aperture value. I think it is necessary for street shooting. I would suggest Leica to calculate two different sets of DoF marks for the LCD-based distance scale: one based on A4 prints and another one, more demanding, for A3 prints. In any case, a set of DoF marks is very important for selecting hyperfocal distances. Michael Reichmann suggests this "hyperfocal" MF operation mode, and I have pointed to different alternatives: 1) A focus button with a set of prefixed distances (1, 2, 3 and 5 meters, for instance), as the Ricoh cameras do. 2) An automatic "hyperfocal MF" operation mode with automatic set of the hyperfocal distance for every aperture selected. 3) DoF markings on the distances scale presented on the LCD. The only problem is DoF scales strongly depend on print size, and many people see the picture on screens at very high magnifications. I have found other ergonomics problems, some of them also pointed to by Michael Reichmann or Sean Reid... but those are mostly hardware-related, and they cannot be modified for this model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 12, 2009 Share #31 Posted November 12, 2009 I'm one of your subscribers and I know these numbers. The half pre-press lag in your review is very close to what Michael Reichmann reported, but it is significantly slower than that of the M8/M9 or that of the even faster Nikon dSLRs. That was my point. That the Panasonic is also slow compared to these doesn't make the X1 faster. Also, Reichmann says that the S90 has essentially no shutter lag, so there's obviously room for improvement. Hi, Remember those numbers also include my human reaction time. I haven't tested the S90 so I can't comment but the half-press reaction time of both the X1 and GF1 is fast enough that they both trip just when I tell them to. Could they be faster - sure - but in use they're not slow. Full press with the X1 is another story. The other comment I made was just general to the thread. Cheers, Sean Also: A key X1 person at Leica just e-mailed me and we're conferencing about my results and possible firmware changes to make improvements. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 12, 2009 Share #32 Posted November 12, 2009 Here's my review: Anybody who used the D-lux 4 will also be aware how unsecure the camera was in the hand without the grip. Presumably the X1 will be the same - so that'll probably be another $300. Initial reports suggest the screen is not particularly good. Never mind, you can always buy the optical viewfinder, and that definitely won't be cheap. So once you've bought the camera, the grip, the viewfinder, and presumably a leather case to protect it all, there isn't going to be a lot of change from $3000. Most of what it offers is not really a lot better than the competition, which is half the price. Conclusion: Poor value for money. CV 35 finder works great on X1 - $160 ish. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterb Posted November 12, 2009 Share #33 Posted November 12, 2009 I just read both Sean Reid's terrific review (as usual) and Michael Reichmann's equally terrific (again as usual) field report on the X1. My take? The X1 appears to have a superb lens. Sean used his tell-all phrase: "Jawdropping." when commenting on the output. The X1 also apparently has very little AA filter effects to impair detail. With its lower contrast characteristics (an unusual trait for a Leica lenses of yore but perhaps advantageous in the digital age) a higher dynamic range can be achieved in prints, alleviating some initial fears I had with some of the early samples posted elsewhere on the net that showed large blownout highlight areas that had given me pause. The X1 Elmarit lens is no Elmarit "M" lens, but may have similar 'drawing' capabilities. (But not an additional $1700 worth!) But the FOV is similar to that chosen by the film 'greats' of the last century. For a single optic camera, an wonderful choice to work with. The X1 with its large APS-C sensor and lowish pixel density produces very good images up to 1600 (with some minor tweaking and up to 3200 in a pinch. BW would certainly be more acceptable with its digital artifacts than color.) Again Sean's rarely used phrase should be taken into account here. The X1 has (refreshingly) relatively simple product design: Uncluttered decks and relatively few buttons and goofy scene modes. The possibility of an additional add-on hand grip (at more money) and the optical finder (either Leitz' uber expensive one or any current one from voightlander and others) would create a very handle-able camera. I have the G1 (which also feels good in the hand) and am quite impressed with it and see no point in the GF1 since I'd want the EVF anyway (which isn't nearly as good as the one in the G1!) which in my mind and hand puts it in the same volume arena as the G1. Plus, with the 20mm f1.7 (which as Sean pointed out gives the Lumix machines a greater than one stop advantage) wide open and available light photography with shallow DOF will yield results at ISO 800 (still very good IQ on the Lumix cameras) that you'd probably NEED the larger sensor and lower noise of the X1 for. (A wash perhaps?) And the G1 with that lens would not present that much of a larger footprint than the GF1 (again for those who would prefer it to have the disappointingly low res- EVF available added on...and additionally disappointing that the one offered on Olympus' digital 'pen' will have won't work on it either.) Plus the X1 has relatively good build and heft. The X1's 'ear holes' for the speaker could be a source of moisture entering from above. (Ummm...a teeny pinch of silicon caulk would probably seal those holes up nicely I think.) The X1's aperture apparently continues to fluctuate even while in aperture priority. A problem that might be addressed with a firmware tweak as Sean noted. But if the half-pressed shutter approach is used may not be so much of an issue. The LCD is good but not great. (B.T.W. I've really grown to like the G1's articulating LCD. Very useful.) The X1 packaging screams Leica apparently. You will not be disappointed. The X1`may have problematic top deck dials that need to be checked when pulling in and out of the pocket. (Sean didn't report any problems but Reichman did.) The X1 shoots fastest when the shutter button is pressed halfway. (Something I've been doing since the advent of the AF age where I lock and anticipate.) But the issue of a slow shutter lag with a quick grab and press is troubling. Those shots will get away. The X1's flash is cute and in my opinion useless. And will most likely be used once in a blue moon. The shutter on the X1 can be utterly silent (like the D2 and Lumix/Leica LX/Dlux series). The shutter noise on the Lumix G1, GH1 and GF1 cameras, by the way, are, for the most part, somewhat M-like (from the film era) with soft and relatively unobtrusive "shluck". The X1 has somewhat disappointing AF. Better than the DP1 and DP2 for sure, but hardly as impressive as the contrast AF Panasonic has wrought with their G1, GH1 and GF1 cameras. Moreover both Sean and Michael commented on the MF capabilities. Sean preferred zone focus over the AF. Michael suggested that the slowish AF was a concern for shoot from the hip street photography. That said, with its superb output, deliberate photography would not be a problem. And again, if you lock and load with the shutter half depressed you need only a quarter second anticipation to attain the 'decisive moment'. The X1 despite the reservations will be no doubt loved by most folks who crave all things Leica. Those who are willing to spring 2G's for an X1 and its Elmarit (design) lens may want to consider springing just a little more for a used M8 and lens of similar optical quality (from Cosina?) and end up with a far more robust APS-C camera with a rangefinder and the ability to buy additional optics when desired. And, finally, the X1 will also be seriously considered by those who may ultimately conclude the far less costly package the Lumix GF1 (and other similar machines) present an alternative whose ultimate output is not significantly improved by the additional $1100. Ultimately if your bottom line is ultimate image quality in a compact camera for the moment the X1 is currently the top choice. But if the issues of cost and AF alacrity are serious concerns there may be better choices that yield very little significant loss in ultimate image quality for less. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 12, 2009 Share #34 Posted November 12, 2009 Sean, Good review! I'm looking forward to the noise section - I'm considering something in the X1 or EP-1 or GF-1 class, so if you have an EP-1, I'd be interested in how the X1 at maximum aperture compares to an EP-1 with the Panny pancake lens on it at max aperture. In other words, will the greater aperture of the Panny lens plus the IS on the EP-1 outweigh the X1's sensor advantage? Regards, Sandy Thanks Sandy. I hope to have that section done within the next week. I won't weigh IS into the mix (since many of us photograph subjects that move) but I definitely will be looking at the difference in high ISO performance as related to lens speed differences. I think I discussed that idea a bit in the review already. It's quite true that the GF1 with 40/1.7 starts with 1.5 stops advantage in gathering light and that's not to be discounted. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted November 12, 2009 Share #35 Posted November 12, 2009 I cannot understand why Leica put two wheels at the back of the camera... Just one would have done the job... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted November 12, 2009 Share #36 Posted November 12, 2009 Remember those numbers also include my human reaction time. I haven't tested the S90 so I can't comment but the half-press reaction time of both the X1 and GF1 is fast enough that they both trip just when I tell them to. Could they be faster - sure - but in use they're not slow. Sean, I certainly don't want to disparage your reviews which I usually enjoy, but I remember that you also said here that you'd need "superhuman perception" to perceive a shutter lag on the M9. Shortly thereafter Stefan Daniel confirmed that the M9 has indeed a shutter lag of a tenth of a second which is something most humans can perceive without problems. So, when Michael Reichmann says that the shutter response of the X1 "is not instantaneous" this is something that makes me skeptical at least - regardless of the actual numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 12, 2009 Share #37 Posted November 12, 2009 Sean, I certainly don't want to disparage your reviews which I usually enjoy, but I remember that you also said here that you'd need "superhuman perception" to perceive a shutter lag on the M9. Shortly thereafter Stefan Daniel confirmed that the M9 has indeed a shutter lag of a tenth of a second which is something most humans can perceive without problems. So, when Michael Reichmann says that the shutter response of the X1 "is not instantaneous" this is something that makes me skeptical at least - regardless of the actual numbers. It's a matter of definition I suppose. If I can press the shutter of a camera and have it release exactly when I want it to then I'm happy. Beyond that sometimes seems like splitting hairs. But others may see this differently. Michael and I will talk later today and perhaps he'll clarify the conditions (half-press or full press) under which he's seeing this delay. I don't think he's measured it formally yet but I'll ask. Full press on the X1 is problematic right now - half press, for me, gets the arrow to the bull's eye. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 12, 2009 Share #38 Posted November 12, 2009 The X1`may have problematic top deck dials that need to be checked when pulling in and out of the pocket. (Sean didn't report any problems but Reichman did.) I didn't notice that so much but I did note that its easy to accidentally open the flash when lifting the camera out of a case, etc. Different M.O.s <G> Interesting summary, Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglasco Posted November 12, 2009 Share #39 Posted November 12, 2009 Looking at the photographs taken by the X1 on http://www.reidreviews.com I am more than pleased with the image quality. The other minor issues will be sorted out by the time the camera is available. The X1 looks as though it is going to be a great camera for a compact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 12, 2009 Share #40 Posted November 12, 2009 Looking at the photographs taken by the X1 on http://www.reidreviews.com I am more than pleased with the image quality. The other minor issues will be sorted out by the time the camera is available. The X1 looks as though it is going to be a great camera for a compact. One of the lead people on the X1 project e-mailed me this morning and we're communicating about the various aspects of the camera that could be improved with firmware changes. I suspect that at least some of these improvement will be made before the camera ships. There's been a lot of chatter on the web about what people think the X1's weaknesses are. It has some, to be sure, but it also has a number of strengths that are getting less attention. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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