jlancasterd Posted November 28, 2006 Share #41 Posted November 28, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Can anyone explain what the AP reviewer meant by: 'It does not have the immediacy of Epson's RD-1s,'... This has me baffled. Surely the RD-1s is no more useable 'out of the box' than the M8? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 28, 2006 Posted November 28, 2006 Hi jlancasterd, Take a look here M8 - Amateur Photographer Review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted November 28, 2006 Share #42 Posted November 28, 2006 In all fairness Reginald I think you may be misrepresenting what Jaap was saying. My interpretation is that you can't just pick up the camera and use it. There are certain techniques to be learned. Most purchasers of p&s cameras are only interested in pressing the little button on the top. Nothing wrong with that, it's their perogative. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted November 28, 2006 Share #43 Posted November 28, 2006 One of my problems with AP and BJP (which I think are better than any American photo magazines that do evaluations) is the non-rigorous testing regimes. Not that this isn't a problem everywhere. There are parts of tests that seem to be inevitably subjective, but the testing sequence doesn't have to be. To test a professional level camera primarily in .jpg doesn't just seem odd, it seems negligent. If you're going to offer a serious test of a pro-level camera, you should surely test it extensively in RAW, as well as .jpg. And you should, over time, develop a check list of items that a reviewer is required to address. Further, if you are going to compare, you should go to extreme lengths to be sure that the comparisons are fair. I've never used a pro-level Canon, but some people think that they are the best pro-level camera made. So why does Erwin Puts, who is known for pretty good lens tests, compare images from an M8 and a 5D using a top prime on the Leica and a mediocre zoom on the Canon? The answer, I think, was that it was convenient to do so -- but it thoroughly messed up the test, IMHO. Maybe one of the things that science/technology minded people on this forum (and we have a lot of them) could offer to magazines, and to each other, is a check list of evaluation routines that would bring some kind of order to these tests. As it stands, most tests are meaningless, or worse, misleading, the exact opposite of their intention. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter41951 Posted November 28, 2006 Share #44 Posted November 28, 2006 Can anyone explain what the AP reviewer meant by: 'It does not have the immediacy of Epson's RD-1s,'... This has me baffled. Surely the RD-1s is no more useable 'out of the box' than the M8? I assume he's referring to his experience with not getting immediate access to menus after switching on, and the fact that you need to press the shutter release to reactivate the camera when it's gone to sleep. (p22) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted November 28, 2006 Share #45 Posted November 28, 2006 ........I thought the free lens brush with this week's AP was worth having :-) I've started reading AP again after years of not reading it and the reviews always seem to me (as a teacher) like reading the report on an errant child. "Could do better", "Somewhat disappointed", "not quite the standard I was expecting". On top of that they seem to be in internet denial. By the time AP have reviewed a camera any amateur in the real world has already slavered over countless reviews from places like DPreview etc. On the other hand, the portfolios and features on other photographers work is instructive and I don't know where else you can get that sort of insight on a weekly basis (other than by visiting this forum each day, perhaps?). LouisB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zurenborger Posted November 28, 2006 Share #46 Posted November 28, 2006 The fact that every other thread on the digital part on this forum is a direct or indirect complaint about the M8 (ok you call it providing add-ons, tips, solutions, solution possibilities and enhancements) means that the camera has not achieved pro-status yet, as we all know. The question is if it ever will, compared to other pro-digital cameras disregarding the price it is an inferior product which in terms of usability in the pro-segment leaves a lot to wish for. It's weight and size do not justify the lack of overall image capability, maybe matters will be solved by having it serviced and installing the latest firmware updates, who knows, but perfect this camera is not, hence the rating is very liberal one I think. I have replaced mine with a much bulkier and heavier 5D but the end result being the images at any standard is better, the overall investment is less, now it's up to anyone to decide whether weight and size is a justification for accepting lower overall image qualities. I have made my choice, I am not inflicting my decision upon you, but deep in your hearts you must all know this for it is so evident that it simply can't be overseen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 28, 2006 Share #47 Posted November 28, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well are we giving out to amateurs....they don't understand the first thing of the techniques to be used? I must say a pretty arrogant statement of all the " dy hards" here.I know a lot of "pros" who's "photographs" cannot even stand (or hang) in the shadow of some of the " amateurs" I know. Who is JaapV to claim that M cameras are only built for his kind of breed? (obviously a "pro") Why don' t you go and open your own forum where pros can stick feathers up each others you know whats? I know about at least one PRO who totaly misleaded the entire world in a review about the M8....remember? (luminous landscape?) ??? Please point out where I said these things - I suppose they represent your opinion - certainly not mine.... In all fairness Reginald I think you may be misrepresenting what Jaap was saying. My interpretation is that you can't just pick up the camera and use it. There are certain techniques to be learned. Most purchasers of p&s cameras are only interested in pressing the little button on the top. Nothing wrong with that, it's their perogative. Thank you for summing up my post - but not a case of misrepresentation - misreading more likely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 28, 2006 Share #48 Posted November 28, 2006 The fact that every other thread on the digital part on this forum is a direct or indirect complaint about the M8 (ok you call it providing add-ons, tips, solutions, solution possibilities and enhancements) means that the camera has not achieved pro-status yet, as we all know. The question is if it ever will, compared to other pro-digital cameras disregarding the price it is an inferior product which in terms of usability in the pro-segment leaves a lot to wish for. It's weight and size do not justify the lack of overall image capability, maybe matters will be solved by having it serviced and installing the latest firmware updates, who knows, but perfect this camera is not, hence the rating is very liberal one I think. I have replaced mine with a much bulkier and heavier 5D but the end result being the images at any standard is better, the overall investment is less, now it's up to anyone to decide whether weight and size is a justification for accepting lower overall image qualities. I have made my choice, I am not inflicting my decision upon you, but deep in your hearts you must all know this for it is so evident that it simply can't be overseen. All posts by knowlegable pros and reviewers point at equal or superior files - Like you I won't force an opposing opinion on you, but surely you must be aware that very few support your view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zurenborger Posted November 28, 2006 Share #49 Posted November 28, 2006 All posts by knowlegable pros and reviewers point at equal or superior files - Like you I won't force an opposing opinion on you, but surely you must be aware that very few support your view. I don't take into account what professionals say, I don't care what reviewers say, the only thing I can depend and rely upon is my own view of matters. And last of all I am not seeking supporters here, just trying to state the fact that according to my own observations the M8 is not "grown up" yet" as in a comparison to other readily available cameras. That the other available cameras may of had flaws in the beginning .... fine and accepted, they do not have as many flaws as the M8 currently has. If you don't see that, fine too and I sincerely hope that things will improve for the M8 for I will be amongst the first to purchase it again, but until then, it's just not good enough! and lets not start the "knowledgeable" reviewer discussion again ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brunom Posted November 28, 2006 Share #50 Posted November 28, 2006 I feel that the magazine's management/editors' attitudes towards it's readers, is what is wrong and by giving points and %'s so that one camera having say 90% is deemed better that one given 87% .It's this attitude that is 'amarteur-ish' not the readers. It's just nonesense to perpetuate the myth that one camera is somehow 'better' than another, in some sort of league table way. I really don't understand why they carry on with this silly system. That's why I gave up even reading it a long time ago. Why can't they just come up with a human conclusion such as 'I really like it and recommend it' or ' it's really not very good and I can't recommend it' My opinion. Bruno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zurenborger Posted November 28, 2006 Share #51 Posted November 28, 2006 All posts by knowlegable pros and reviewers point at equal or superior files - Like you I won't force an opposing opinion on you, but surely you must be aware that very few support your view. and we must keep in mind that there are always two groups of Leica enthusiasts: 1. The photographers whom appreciate the Leica quality over the past years and therefore stand by it 2. The Photographers who would claim a crystal whiskey tumbler with a red dot will provide excellent images Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjr Posted November 28, 2006 Share #52 Posted November 28, 2006 Always difficult this..but one has to consider the facilities offered by the M8 [ basic essentials ] compared to the Nikons and the Canons [endless].The problem is Leica has no one to compare with because its whole essense is ,in fact,different from all others.Therefore the score is ...meaningless by default! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zurenborger Posted November 28, 2006 Share #53 Posted November 28, 2006 BTW Jaap, Hellevoetsluis, where you live is this in the south of Holland, and does it have a Yacht harbour ... if it does I use to have my sailing boat anchored there.... it was on the "hollands Diep" entrance ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 28, 2006 Share #54 Posted November 28, 2006 Hey everybody! I've just done something REALLY radical! I've READ the review BEFORE commenting upon it! Seriously, I would no more comment upon the advantages or shortcomings of a camera I had not used than I would the standards of a restaurant at which I had never dined. Camera reviews, like any reviews, are by their very nature subjective, and personal. The prime example of this is film and theatre critics. As you read their reviews over a period of time you become familiar with their likes and dislikes, their inherent bias and world-view. It will differ from your own, but because they are consistent, you can base your theatre and cinema going on it. If critic x dislikes things you like, you are pretty safe in going along to something they have panned. Similarly, I do not feel qualified to comment upon a review until I have read it. The M8 review has been written by Damien Demolder. Like him or not, he is experienced, and consistent. You can make your own mind up, and draw your own conclusions, from what you read. For what it's worth, I think this is a fair and balanced review, in a fair and balanced magazine. The "Amateur" part of the masthead appears to draw the approbium of many here who have never read the title; by the same token I am sure they would regard "Practical Photography" as superior, instead of the trite, repetitive, condescenting purient trash that it truly is. AP is not equivalent to tosh like Popular Photography. Far be it from me to be an apologist for it - I actually find it on the whole to be broadly equivalent to a midrange tabloid in style and content - but it is reasonable and generally thoughtfully produced. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted November 28, 2006 Share #55 Posted November 28, 2006 I don't take into account what professionals say, I don't care what reviewers say, the only thing I can depend and rely upon is my own view of matters. And last of all I am not seeking supporters here, just trying to state the fact that according to my own observations the M8 is not "grown up" yet" as in a comparison to other readily available cameras. ... I too don't think it is quite grown up but perhaps it is promising... Well I'm a professional and I haven't photographed with the M8 yet. I have no opinion on the handling of the camera and my opinion of the image quality is that it is spotty (some really good images and some that make me wonder what is going on.) This is based on what I've seen posted and I'd certainly have a clearer view if I could shoot with one for a while. I have downloaded some DNGs and looked at them very carefully in C1 Pro at 100% and converted some too. The best file I found was the street and building photo from Outback Photo. (I'd love to get to download some other DNGs if anyone can point me in the right direction.) It is very sharp and has good color. (From what I can tell with no color reference.) I don't see any chromatic aberrations although one site I looked at said they saw some chromatic aberrations when they looked at the photo. The chrome highlights get purple and I see a little magenta tinging in some shadows, but not too bad. I compared it with similar images I've made with my 5D and would have to say they are comparable for most purposes. (This is not a scientific test but the images from either camera would serve many of my needs.) Some of the Canon lenses have more chromatic aberration and probably more distortion. I convert in DxO and it pretty much eliminates many lens defects. Keep in mind that I am just discussing this one photo so I am not getting into the reported IR sensitivity and other "issues" that may affect one's decision to buy the M8 However what I haven't seen mentioned ( I could have missed it) is that the M8 images have some very fine stair stepping visible on contrasty edges that curve or angle slightly. On the image from Outback Photo, I can clearly see the stair stepping on the chrome frame around the car windows. When I look really closely, I can see it elsewhere very slightly. This may not be much of an issue for most photographers and probably won't be noticeable on too many shots. All in all, I'd be pretty happy (not overjoyed) with what I've seen from the M8, providing the color issues and other problems get resolved to the point that its versatility and overall performance comes close to that of the 5D. Of course that's a big if. So for me, it remains to be seen... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 28, 2006 Share #56 Posted November 28, 2006 I don't take into account what professionals say, I don't care what reviewers say, the only thing I can depend and rely upon is my own view of matters. And last of all I am not seeking supporters here, just trying to state the fact that according to my own observations the M8 is not "grown up" yet" as in a comparison to other readily available cameras. That the other available cameras may of had flaws in the beginning .... fine and accepted, they do not have as many flaws as the M8 currently has. If you don't see that, fine too and I sincerely hope that things will improve for the M8 for I will be amongst the first to purchase it again, but until then, it's just not good enough! and lets not start the "knowledgeable" reviewer discussion again ... I do respect your choice, but from using the camera I can only say the flaws, such as they are, have been put under a macro lens on the internet. My experience, and I am not a knowlegeable reviewer by any stretch of imagination, is that, if used correctly, my M8 is capable of turning out extremely high-level files. And yes- I live 2 minutes walk from said marina. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted November 28, 2006 Share #57 Posted November 28, 2006 Far be it from me to be an apologist for it - I actually find it on the whole to be broadly equivalent to a midrange tabloid in style and content But without the foaming at the mouth stuff, eh Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 28, 2006 Share #58 Posted November 28, 2006 But without the foaming at the mouth stuff, eh Bill LOL! ...most of the time, but sometimes, the letters... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted November 28, 2006 Share #59 Posted November 28, 2006 Oooh! hope that doesn't include the LOTW I had a couple of months ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 29, 2006 Share #60 Posted November 29, 2006 Naw... I was thinking of the regular rants about: Camera club judges Digital being the death of film Digital not being the death of film Derisory dealer trade-in offers Leicas being a waste of money Leicas not being a waste of money Computers being a waste of money Computers being unnecessary Too much automation Not enough automation Any public photography competition - terms and conditions Any public photography competition - judging standards Ken Livingstone Etc... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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