250swb Posted October 21, 2009 Share #21 Posted October 21, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Have you actually read the review? He states quite clearly that thing the M9 excels at is image quality. Isn't that what Leica is all about? Have I actually read the review? Yes, how else do you think I could comment on it, I am not telepathic. If you only consider Leica is about is image quality then I can't argue with you. It is a compelling case. But not wanting to be so one dimensional and blinkered I'd say the qualities of a Leica M range from image quality, to handling, to discreet operation, to speed, to futurebility (of lenses at least), to a fine user experience, and to fitting into a well understood and accepted genre of documentary and candid photography that in many cases produces the 'Leica look'. These things you either 'get' or not, but to be honest I'd not even thought that image quality alone could be the basis of a review of an M9 by a 'top' photo magazine. I mean, not even Top Gear reviews cars by their top speed alone, so if you want to get even less intellectual then AP is the mag for you. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Hi 250swb, Take a look here M9 Amateur Photographer review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
earleygallery Posted October 21, 2009 Share #22 Posted October 21, 2009 Well, most people use Leica because of the lenses, not the cameras. Of course they make some wonderful cameras too, but their raison d'etre are the optics, and you also either get that or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulrikft Posted October 21, 2009 Share #23 Posted October 21, 2009 Well, most people use Leica because of the lenses, not the cameras. Of course they make some wonderful cameras too, but their raison d'etre are the optics, and you also either get that or not. That attitude is just fantastic Congratulations! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted October 22, 2009 Share #24 Posted October 22, 2009 Well, most people use Leica because of the lenses, not the cameras. Of course they make some wonderful cameras too, but their raison d'etre are the optics, and you also either get that or not. Speak for yourself. What do you know about "most people"? Any statistics available? I, for one, don't agree with this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 22, 2009 Share #25 Posted October 22, 2009 Well, most people use Leica because of the lenses, not the cameras. Of course they make some wonderful cameras too, but their raison d'etre are the optics, and you also either get that or not. Thats a great put down for users of CV lenses, I'll have to remember it. Steve edit, and ZM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lemon Posted October 22, 2009 Share #26 Posted October 22, 2009 looked at the AP site - whats this compo about? - Win a Leica M9 We have a limited-edition Leica M9 to give away to one lucky reader. Find out how you could win it - before i runsh out and buy a copy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 22, 2009 Share #27 Posted October 22, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thats a great put down for users of CV lenses, I'll have to remember it. [and ZM] Not at all. Did you switch from whatever you used before to Leica M in order to use Voigtländer lenses? The usual reason is that the camera is the entry point to the system, many of the CV and ZM lenses are very good, but with time, it is also more common to replace a few lenses with Leica lenses. Some of the ZM lenses are as good as the Leica equivalents, but not all, and the same goes to a greater extent with CV lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 22, 2009 Share #28 Posted October 22, 2009 Any statistics available? I, for one, don't agree with this. No statistics, but the vast majority of people I've met using Leica bodies have also been using Leica lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 22, 2009 Share #29 Posted October 22, 2009 Thats a great put down for users of CV lenses, I'll have to remember it. Steve edit, and ZM Just to clarify, I have a couple of CV lenses which I use on my lllf and M2, I also use a couple of Tamron's on my R3. It's not about 'putting down' or any snobbery. The CV and Tamron lenses I have are excellent. If I could afford to I'd buy Leica for all focal lengths, and I generally use my Leica lenses more often especially my 35 Summicron R Mandler lens, that's my joint favourite, along with the red scale Elmar. However the 25 Skopar is a definate keeper, and when I eventually buy a 35 Summicron ASPH for my M2 I'll still keep the Skopar for times when I want less contrast. But, if you still don't agree, this is from the Leica website; Ultimately, it is the lenses - and the optical quality of the sport optics products - that are chiefly responsible for establishing the legend and high ideals of the Leica brand. With the M8 and M9 there is also the quality of the images that the sensor produces, which is an important factor, but it seems the majority of purchasers of the M8 were existing Leica photographers who wanted a digital platform for their Leica optics, likewise the M9, although the concept of FF rangefinder photography will definately bring more new photographers to Leica for both the quality of the lenses, and the preference of using a rangefinder camera, as it is the only camera of its type. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 22, 2009 Share #30 Posted October 22, 2009 But, if you still don't agree, this is from the Leica website; Ultimately, it is the lenses - and the optical quality of the sport optics products - that are chiefly responsible for establishing the legend and high ideals of the Leica brand. quote] Have I disagreed that Leica make excellent lenses and it is the top reason to use an M camera? No, but it is only one reason, there are others, and its no good using excellent lenses if those other reasons don't fit into your type of photography. So I'm unsure why you are banging on about Leica lens quality? I'm baffled why Leica corporate blurb is supposed to prove something though, can you quote all of it, or do you look it up on a case by case basis? Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted October 22, 2009 Share #31 Posted October 22, 2009 looked at the AP site - whats this compo about? - Win a Leica M9 We have a limited-edition Leica M9 to give away to one lucky reader. Find out how you could win it - before i runsh out and buy a copy! You need to collect eight numbered tokens - the first of which appeared two weeks ago (the second only in the current issue due to a cock-up when they forgot to put it in last week's). Unless you fancy buying a back number then you're a bit late. So far as I know, the prize is a black M9 with AP 125 years engraving on the top plate. Oh, plus 35mm f/2 lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 22, 2009 Share #32 Posted October 22, 2009 I'm baffled why Leica corporate blurb is supposed to prove something though, can you quote all of it, or do you look it up on a case by case basis? Steve I was simply pointing out that Leica are primarily a lens manufacturer. They make cameras so that you can use their lenses. The full Leica blurb is on their website if you want to read it. I'm not trying to prove anything, but you seem to be. Anyway, I've nothing more to add. It's a review, one person's opinion, get over it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
damien_demolder Posted October 22, 2009 Share #33 Posted October 22, 2009 Well, they say there's nothing worse than being ignored, so I guess I'm glad our test has come up as a topic here. As MikeyM says though, it's hardly a place for unbiased comment! Obviously our readership is not 100% Leica, or any other brand, so in every case we have to be aware that a large percentage of those consuming our tests will not be absolutely familiar with the operating system and function of that range of products. We do have a strong Leica base, and many readers like to read even about products they have no intention of buying. However, it is worth noting that Leica UK thinks we write a good and fair test, and demonstrated the fact by ensuring AP got the first test unit in the country. They didn’t do that because they thought we’d just gloss over it. I should point out to Steve that nothing is tested with a grad of any sort, let along a tobacco, as our tests are technical tests not features. There are not many ‘pretty’ pictures as we use the space for information, but those that are shown hardly represent those that were taken in the course of the test process. Our testing is real-life mixed with the technical targets – we prefer real-life, but the audience wants to see targets, so we do both. Bill – you must have missed our street photography special (19 September), which is a shame. It was very good and sold particularly well. And I am sure you will know we are constantly working for photographers’ rights through the magazine’s news pages and through parliament. Your friend Barney has been subjected to ‘stop and account’ earlier this year. I’m sorry some of you thought the test was blather, but we’ve had a very favourable response from most of the readers. It wasn’t supposed to be a feature on Leica M rangefinders – we do those often enough – but it was a test of a specific product with a specific audience in mind. Our readers do buy Leicas and many are completely in love with the brand. We review fairly because we know we’ll get stick if we don’t – but we don’t mind saying a product isn’t what it should be (M8 and DMR) or praising when it’s due (MP, M7 and M9). But most of all I’m glad you are all so passionate about Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barney_b Posted October 22, 2009 Share #34 Posted October 22, 2009 For all my frustrations with today's AP, I think it was the right thing to do to give it to Mr Britton. He is a young photographer who has grown up with the digital revolution and will take more of an "everyman" view than someone who has used Leica extensively in the past. That said, it was frustrating that they bottled out at the end and gave it a subjective rather than an objective rating. Thanks Bill - and thanks to everyone for their input. I thought I'd sign up to just clear up a couple of points. As regards the scoring of the M9, Damien and I decided after much deliberation that because the M9 stands alone, effectively, in the current market, it would be unhelpful to give it an 'objective' score. The reasons for this are obvious really - AP awards marks according to performance in clearly delineated areas - autofocus, metering, and so on. The M9 lacks autofocus, lacks live view, and its 'viewfinder' is obviously a very different type of device to most digital cameras, so its score would have suffered as a result. We felt that this would be unfair to such a unique camera, and irrelevant to those of our readers that are familiar with the M system. We spoke about how we might describe it in one word, and 'excellent' was the word that we came up with, hence it's rating in the review. I hope I didn't 'miss the point' of the M9, as some posters have suggested - I would have thought that the fact that I didn't assess it according to AP's normal marking criteria is proof enough of that. I do have extensive experience of the M and L systems, and I have an M3 in my personal collection, which I used alongside the M9 during my test. This greatly informed my opinions of the new camera's handling, and rangefinder accuracy, amongst other things. Unfortunately, although I shot a great many images with the M9 (just over 2000 I think) we didn't have space to include any of my portraits or street scenes. Those images that make it into AP's tests have to justify their presence by showing something, or demonstrating a technical point made in the running copy. As for the suggestion that I would somehow inevitably conclude that it isn't worth the money, I hope that my verdict makes it clear that this isn't the case. I really like the M9, and I wish we hadn't been asked to give it back. Naturally, though, I have to remain objective, and balance its good points against its weaknesses. Otherwise, I would face justifiable criticism for a pro-Leica bias. God forbid! Thanks everyone for your valuable feedback. Barney Britton Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 22, 2009 Share #35 Posted October 22, 2009 First and foremost, credit to you, Damien and Barney, for posting here. I am truly impressed by that - I'll happily shake your hands the next time I'm in Blue Fin. It's worthwhile to read your thinking, and hopefully that will shut up some of the more thoughtless critics - especially those who haven't actually read Barney's piece. Bill – you must have missed our street photography special (19 September), which is a shame. It was very good and sold particularly well. And I am sure you will know we are constantly working for photographers’ rights through the magazine’s news pages and through parliament. Your friend Barney has been subjected to ‘stop and account’ earlier this year. Ah. Now, you see, there you lose me. Not only did I buy it, I have it in my hand as I type. The "Advanced Travel and Street Photography on the cover translated into a single item on the latter subject and that - the "Street Challenge" item - was cringe-making. Barney came up with a back-shot and Angela Nicholson not only did the same but added a couple of dogs at a show - hardly what I would call "street". Richard Sibley did well, mind you. As to photographers' rights, I think you will find that we started here some time before AP woke up to the problem... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/47709-advice-photographers-uk-my-fellow-criminals.html Always nice when the press picks up on these things though...! Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted October 22, 2009 Share #36 Posted October 22, 2009 No statistics, but the vast majority of people I've met using Leica bodies have also been using Leica lenses. That isn't what I was questioning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
damien_demolder Posted October 22, 2009 Share #37 Posted October 22, 2009 and that - the "Street Challenge" item - was cringe-making. I don't know if we're allowed to say 'LOL' here (pretend it means 'Lord O Leica', but you did make me laugh out loud - in a good way, of course. You speak your mind! As to photographers' rights, I think you will find that we started here some time before AP woke up to the problem... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/47709-advice-photographers-uk-my-fellow-criminals.html Always nice when the press picks up on these things though...! For God's sake, Bill, that's only last year. We've been on the rights thing for yonks. The last editor, Garry, started it before we knew Al-Qaeda existed. Everyone was worried about pedophiles in those days. It was relatively blissful! And next time you're in the BFB look me up. I'll buy you a coffee - though you'll need to be careful I don't put something in it. :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 22, 2009 Share #38 Posted October 22, 2009 Can I just say that as far as I'm concerned AP can do not wrong. That of course has nothing to do with them printing a multipage spread of my Paris pics several years ago <grin> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 22, 2009 Share #39 Posted October 22, 2009 Fair play to Damien and Barney for daring to enter the lions den But god help you if the special edition M9 doesn't end up in the hands of a forum member Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barney_b Posted October 23, 2009 Share #40 Posted October 23, 2009 Fair play to Damien and Barney for daring to enter the lions den But god help you if the special edition M9 doesn't end up in the hands of a forum member I tried to sneak the 125th Anniversary M9 into my camera bag, but my plan to stop anyone from winning it by removing the tokens from the news pages was thwarted before it had reached fruition... Damn, sorry Damien, I think I mentioned the missing token. Only once, but I think I got away with it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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