MPJMP Posted October 16, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 16, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) This is yet another "how should I spend my cash" thread.... If you had an M rangefinder (film or digital) as your main camera, which Leica compact would you prefer as its companion? I know the X1 has not been released yet, but we'll just go by specs and assume that image quality will meet expectations for something with an APS-C sensor. In my case, photography is a hobby and I shoot a 35mm MP and scan on a Nikon Coolscan V. I would like something digital for more immediate results, particularly when out with the family. I still intend to use my MP for "serious" photography (i.e. out by myself taking pictures for my own pleasure). I tried out a D-Lux 4 today and thought it was OK. Interface was not as good as the Canon G10, but I like the compact size, ability to shoot 3:2 ratio, macro possibilities and also the availability of HD video in 16:9 format. It's kind of a Swiss Army camera. I've put them down in the past for not being a "true Leica," but I can't deny that there are some beautiful images posted here and elsewhere that were made with this camera. The X1, on the other hand, looks to be a serious photographic tool. Not as versatile as a D-Lux 4, but providing superior results within it's restricted parameters. In spirit, it reminds me of the minilux that was my constant companion back in the mid-90's. Price is roughly 2.5X the D-Lux 4, though, which is something to consider. It's a tough call. Which would you choose and why? Thanks in advance for your thoughts, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 16, 2009 Posted October 16, 2009 Hi MPJMP, Take a look here Best Companion to an M: X1 or D-Lux 4?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
elgenper Posted October 16, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 16, 2009 This is yet another "how should I spend my cash" thread.... If you had an M rangefinder (film or digital) as your main camera, which Leica compact would you prefer as its companion? I know the X1 has not been released yet, but we'll just go by specs and assume that image quality will meet expectations for something with an APS-C sensor. In my case, photography is a hobby and I shoot a 35mm MP and scan on a Nikon Coolscan V. I would like something digital for more immediate results, particularly when out with the family. I still intend to use my MP for "serious" photography (i.e. out by myself taking pictures for my own pleasure). I tried out a D-Lux 4 today and thought it was OK. Interface was not as good as the Canon G10, but I like the compact size, ability to shoot 3:2 ratio, macro possibilities and also the availability of HD video in 16:9 format. It's kind of a Swiss Army camera. I've put them down in the past for not being a "true Leica," but I can't deny that there are some beautiful images posted here and elsewhere that were made with this camera. The X1, on the other hand, looks to be a serious photographic tool. Not as versatile as a D-Lux 4, but providing superior results within it's restricted parameters. In spirit, it reminds me of the minilux that was my constant companion back in the mid-90's. Price is roughly 2.5X the D-Lux 4, though, which is something to consider. It's a tough call. Which would you choose and why? Thanks in advance for your thoughts, Mike I´m approaching the same question from the opposite direction, so to speak... I already own the D-Lux 4, and like it a lot - but it has the usual small-sensor limitations (I also have a Digilux 2, which is even better, but still small-sensor...). My only "large-sensor" camera now is a Panasonic G1, which is a bit of a disappointment, so I did consider the X1 as a replacement. But, even that is somewhat of a compromise camera, so I thought "why not go whole hog and get yourself enough camera for the rest of your life?", which in my case was the M9. So, I have one on order now, eagerly awaited. I already own 3 older M lenses (used on my M2 years ago, but still keeping the whole outfit) that will at least get me started. I expect the combination of a small, light M9 outfit and the pocketable D-Lux 4 will really work well together and complement each other perfectly. The X1 would be too close to the M9 + 35 in bulk without being as good, so I fear it would have been left in the cupboard most of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted October 16, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 16, 2009 X1 for sure, but the 4 is a real pocket camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPJMP Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted October 16, 2009 X1 for sure, but the 4 is a real pocket camera. I guess the real answer to my question is probably "one of each, please," but given limited funds I'm having a tough time deciding which will give me more use. I'll also admit to monitoring eBay periodically for used M8s, which are selling for close to what an X1 with optical finder will sell for new. I'm just afraid that after sinking that kind of cash into a digital M I will be constantly battling the decision to grab my film M or M8, not to mention if the M8 ever broke down I'm not sure I could manage the repair bill. And then I still wouldn't have a good camera for when I want to travel light (well, at least lighter than an M). Too many choices, not enough money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugat Posted October 16, 2009 Share #5 Posted October 16, 2009 If d-lux 4 or simply panasonic LX3 is considered, then GF1 is a much better choice. Also takes Leica lenses . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rennsport Posted October 16, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 16, 2009 For a hobbyist like me, a D-Lux 4 is a great second camera. It produces good quality photos, and can also do silly snapshots, close-ups, movie, etc. Sometimes, I don't even bring my DSLR anymore and I only use the D-Lux 4. But if you're a professional shooter, then the X-1 is probably more suitable as a back-up camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Ortego Posted October 17, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I had the M8 with primes and now I just have the DL4. It's Ok but nothing for me to brag about. Given the option, I would want the X1. In fact, the X1 will become my primary once it arrives and the DL4 will either be my back-up or I'll give it to someone in the family. Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_K Posted October 17, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 17, 2009 Guess shooting style also affect the decision, after all the Dlux-4 does include a zoom lens despite its small sensor and i would be a bit un-satisfy working with X1's only 35mm focal range, frankly i shot most of my images in 50 to 60mm range. Then again this is just my 2 cents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
K I Posted October 17, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 17, 2009 Indeed a tough call. I have the DL4 and of course no X1 so i would have to go with what is at hand for now. DL4, is one amazing little beast, at least that's what i think of mine, i take it out pretty much anywhere i go as a second or third back up for shots in tight places where i can't afford to miss a shot and don't have to worry much about anything else. Price wise it makes sense compared to what the X1 will be going for, as said a tough call. I will definitely be buying an M9 before considering the X1, 2K is a lot of cash to dole out, would prefer to put it towards M9. KI Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc247 Posted October 18, 2009 Share #10 Posted October 18, 2009 I have been using the Dlux-4 side by side with my M8 for about a year now. The two work great, especially when I don't want to swap out lenses on my M8. I usually shoot with a 28 or 35 on the M8, and keep the Dlux 4 in a cargo pocket or in a coat. The advantages of having the Dlux4 as a companion to the M8 are as follows: 1. 24mm equiv. f2 lens w/1x9, 3x2 options right at your finger tips. The other option would be to swap out lenses on the M8, and you would need at least a 15-18mm lens to come close, which by the way, are all slow at the moment (in terms of aperture speed). Add to this the loss of time and concentration, and of course, that ever elusive "decisive moment." 2. HD video--for those spontaneous moments when video is needed for an interesting event 3. Smaller, and almost pocketable. From what I have read about the X1, it really does not serve at all as a compliment to the M8. It seems to be the right camera for those who want a Leica but without the cost of an M body and top glass. Plus, the 24mm Elmarit becomes a near 35mm. The 35-50 range is where you will do most of your shooting, and if you have an M, why would you want to carry both? I just don't see the practical day to day use of the X1 for anyone who is an avid rangefinder shooter. The Panny GF1 is another option. But much larger and yet more versatile with a larger sensor than the dlux4. I just picked one up but am having a hard time figuring out where in my shooting habit it will fit. Here are a couple of examples of actual shots, taken with the M8 and dlux4 at the same location. As previously mentioned, the Dlux4 was the perfect wide angle solution at the time. These shots were all taken on a boat on a foggy day with debris and water spraying everywhere. I would never have swapped out my 28 summicron, so the Dlux4 was the only wide angle option. More photos from this outing are here: NYC 1. NYC Hudson: M8 + 28 Summicron Dlux4 shots Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPJMP Posted October 21, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted October 21, 2009 Mark, Thanks for the well thought out reply. You've just about helped me make up my mind that a D-Lux 4 would give me more mileage for my specific needs. I envision using this as more of a "family cam" for those times when having pics immediately available for sharing with family and friends might be a priority, or for travel where I don't want to bother keeping up with something as large as an M hanging over my shoulder. Either camera could potentially fill that role, but for the same reasons you stated above I'm beginning to lean towards the D-Lux 4. The ability to shoot impromptu video and have a 24mm option would be of value even if I acquire a digital M body some time down the road (my widest M lens is a 28mm Elmarit pre-asph). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPJMP Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share #12 Posted October 22, 2009 Hmm... for some reason I just can't pull the trigger on a DL4. Just when I'm ready to whip out the bank card and make the purchase, I am overcome with feelings of doubt. Logically, I know it's a good camera and I would get some real use out of it, but another part of me knows it has no real connection to what I love about Leica cameras other than the Red Dot. It has the same figity controls and convoluted menus that made me return or give away previous compact digicams. The X1, on the other hand, appears to have the Leica design philosophy behind it, and while it is still a compact-style camera, the emphasis on easy manual control and superior optics really appeals to me and seems more in the tradition of esteemed predecessors like the minilux, CM, and Digilux 2. I think I will at least wait until I can hold an X1 in my hand and see the final images before making a decision on which route to go for a compact digicam. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted October 22, 2009 Share #13 Posted October 22, 2009 but another part of me knows it has no real connection to what I love about Leica cameras other than the Red Dot. It has the same figity controls and convoluted menus that made me return or give away previous compact digicams. . This is exactly right...and is the reason why the X1 will feel better and should feel more like a Leica. I just sold my D-Lux 4... it is just another panasonic point and shoot. However, it did offer better image quality than any other digital P&S I've owned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPJMP Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share #14 Posted October 22, 2009 This is exactly right...and is the reason why the X1 will feel better and should feel more like a Leica. I just sold my D-Lux 4... it is just another panasonic point and shoot. However, it did offer better image quality than any other digital P&S I've owned. Are you going to reinvest the proceeds from your D-Lux 4 sale in an X1, or go with something else? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aesop Posted October 22, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 22, 2009 ...not entirely sure how anyone can make a considered choice or comparison without handling the X1. Then again, that's just me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc247 Posted October 23, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 23, 2009 While I never liked the toy like feel of the controls on the Dlux4, the X1 is virtually a Nikon too. It certainly is not a baby M. Leica simply went back to using dials like they did with the Panny manufactured digilux 2, which is still a classic. The point being, if you want a "real" Leica sidekick to the M8, with the same kind of shooting ethos, it does not exist. An X1 with a grip and finder will feel nothing like an M, but more like a GF1 or EP-1 w/OVF. While I deplore the controls on the Dlux4, I don't think the X1 is much of an improvement in terms of giving the user a rangefinderesque shooting experience. It will be used like any advanced p&s. If anything, the manual focusing mechanism on the Sigma DP2 is actually superior, since the focus wheel has distance markings. I am personally interested in seeing what the ASP-C Ricoh, Nikon and based on Rumors, even the Sony will have to offer. Its only reason why I'm still holding onto the Dlux4. Good luck with your decision. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPJMP Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share #17 Posted October 23, 2009 I will say this for the D-Lux 4, many of the pics I see in the D-Lux 4 Group on Flickr are impressive. Mark, your D-Lux Hudson Bay shots are spectacular. Maybe I just need to go with the D-Lux 4 for now and put what I save towards a used M8, M8.2 or (down the road when they start to become available) M9? An MP, M9 and D-Lux 4 should cover all my bases, huh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc247 Posted October 23, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 23, 2009 I will say this for the D-Lux 4, many of the pics I see in the D-Lux 4 Group on Flickr are impressive. Mark, your D-Lux Hudson Bay shots are spectacular. Maybe I just need to go with the D-Lux 4 for now and put what I save towards a used M8, M8.2 or (down the road when they start to become available) M9? An MP, M9 and D-Lux 4 should cover all my bases, huh? Yes. I have also seen some amazing work with this toy of a camera, check especially on LFI. Thanks for the compliment. I used to have the Dlux3. Bought it used for about 500 w/leather case and sold it later for close to 600. Don't underestimate the resale value of the red dot. If you buy a Dlux4, and later sell it, you will NOT lose much. You might even make a few dollars. This has been the case for me, not only with my M lenses, but also the Digilux 2 and 3. I think the Dlux4 is a compromise we live with at the moment. Hopefully a compact in the spirit of the Leica CM or the Ricoh GR21 will come out in digital, with a built in VF and a capable prime 28 or 35, and large sensor. It think we will see something like this in the near future. Perhaps as soon as the end of the year. The VF might be a high res EVF though. It will still beat a dlux4 for ergonomics and handling. And no, I am no referring to the X1. More likely a Nikon, Ricoh or even Samsung. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugat Posted October 23, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 23, 2009 ...not entirely sure how anyone can make a considered choice or comparison without handling the X1. Then again, that's just me. The same way one chooses a weekend movie without actually seeing them all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aesop Posted October 23, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 23, 2009 The same way one chooses a weekend movie without actually seeing them all. ...possibly, nugat, but last time I checked, a weekend movie did not cost GBP 499.99, or thereabouts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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