bill Posted October 14, 2009 Share #21 Posted October 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) If this is a serious issue for "you" -1) leave the lens cap at home 2) use an SLR and then you will know when you have left the lens cap on the camera 3) if you shoot M9 with a cap on don't switch the camera off whilst it is busy making you a picture of it 4) move the shutter dial from A to 4000 and Bob's your Uncle Hope that helps Funny that... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 Hi bill, Take a look here more M9 issues. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ModernMan Posted October 14, 2009 Share #22 Posted October 14, 2009 If this is a serious issue for "you" -1) leave the lens cap at home 2) use an SLR and then you will know when you have left the lens cap on the camera 3) if you shoot M9 with a cap on don't switch the camera off whilst it is busy making you a picture of it 4) move the shutter dial from A to 4000 and Bob's your Uncle Hope that helps Half-measures. What's required is interdiction at source. Leica just needs to fix the firmware bug. Then we can happily: (1) take our lens caps along in case we should like to use them, (2) leave our SLR's at home, (3) won't have to "reboot" our M9's, and (4) leave our shutter dials set to A, where we like 'em. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted October 14, 2009 Share #23 Posted October 14, 2009 hmm - I'm sure yours does . . . but mine doesn't ? Interesting... more testing required... perhaps an interaction with other settings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted October 14, 2009 Share #24 Posted October 14, 2009 Re: Nikon DSLRs never freezing up... My D3 has frozen a handful of times, requiring removal of the battery to restore function. I've never figured out the sequence of events which causes it. In contrast, this has never happened to my M8 (though, obviously, I'm aware of many other M8, and now M9, owners who this has happened to). My point is simply that this kind of thing DOES happen to Nikons - notwithstanding their exemplary products and vaunted quality control. Leica is a hand-assembled product and as such will exhibit sample variation far beyond what we're going to see with a purely mass produced item. We'd be wise to set our expectations accordingly. Me, I can't wait for the arrival of my M9! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted October 15, 2009 Share #25 Posted October 15, 2009 Don't get me wrong I think the m9 has great potential and will seriously be considering getting one and even getting rid of a lot of my nikon gear. I just hope these problems get sorted soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat_mcdermott Posted October 15, 2009 Share #26 Posted October 15, 2009 I hope it can be sorted out too by the time I can actually walk in and buy an M9 rather than being put on some waiting list, but seriously leaving the lens cap off isn't really a big issue nor a hardship work-around until it can fixed in firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted October 15, 2009 Share #27 Posted October 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) To be realistic, which I know is difficult for some people, the facts need to be considered. If you use the camera in a way that it was NOT designed to work eg. making pics with cap on, DON'T blame the camera for stuff ups. Blame yourself! If the camera does have a bug, quite possibly it may, then it is reasonable to expect that it will be addressed along with other issues, given the appropriate time (which I for one cannot predict). If you want to compare apples with oranges, you should be posting on the "fresh fruit forum." Finally, consider the nature of the company you are buying from. A small, by global standards, largely/partly hand made manufacturer. By definition there must be some room for variation, and of course there is. If you are not comfortable with the offering, leave it alone and opt for more predictable "middle of the road" offerings from Japan. Just basic shopping advice. I practice it in the markets every week and always get what I'm expecting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted October 15, 2009 Share #28 Posted October 15, 2009 To be realistic, which I know is difficult for some people, the facts need to be considered. If you use the camera in a way that it was NOT designed to work eg. making pics with cap on, DON'T blame the camera for stuff ups. Blame yourself! Well, lets consider that. The camera actually doesn't know that the lense cap is on. It just thinks its dark out and begins a long exposure when you press the shutter. Then turning the camera off in the middle of a long exposure results, sometimes, in a camera freezup. That's a bug. Not user error. And we expect it will be fixed in the fullness of time. Turning the camera off in the middle of a long exposure is a case which the firmware should handle with grace. My M7 did just fine. Its not a matter of "using the camera in a way that it was NOT designed to work". Its just a matter of a circumstance which was not adequately considered in the design and testing of the software. Do not "Blame youself!". The firmware development team created the problem. I think its valuable that these issues are discovered and reported in this forum. Hopefully Leica will take note, and theLeica experience will ultimately be improved for all. If you want to compare apples with oranges, you should be posting on the "fresh fruit forum." Random drivel? If you are not comfortable with the offering, leave it alone and opt for more predictable "middle of the road" offerings from Japan. Just basic shopping advice. I practice it in the markets every week and always get what I'm expecting. Sanctimonious bunk. Nobody even contemplated being uncomfortable with the offering. They simply shared an issue with other community members. The forum should welcome such discussion, but, sadly, sometimes when flaws in the M9, or critical comments, are discussed bluntly (without due defference to an implicit product infallability which I'm sure Leica themselves would not claim to have) then the prescription offered is that the blasphemer should relegate themselves to the unenlightened darkness of Japanese products, and thereby get what they want and deserve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted October 15, 2009 Share #29 Posted October 15, 2009 Random drivel? Sanctimonious bunk. ... are well below the standard of postings that I have come to expect on this forum - you are the second to make my 'ignore' list. Can we please have better? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted October 15, 2009 Share #30 Posted October 15, 2009 ... are well below the standard of postings that I have come to expect on this forum - you are the second to make my 'ignore' list. Can we please have better? For the avoidance of doubt, you see evident merit in posts directing members to the "fresh fruit forum", and offering cousel to consider "offerings from Japan" to those with the temerity to offer a comment critical of Leica? Yet your sensibilities won't suffer those posts that characterize such comments in unequivocal terms? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted October 15, 2009 Share #31 Posted October 15, 2009 ... are well below the standard of postings that I have come to expect on this forum - you are the second to make my 'ignore' list. Can we please have better? In my opinion this 'bug' is only provoked by user error, however others can express their different views. Using language that many consider to be rude is a poor way to disagree though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUF Admin Posted October 15, 2009 Share #32 Posted October 15, 2009 OK, everybody calm down again - thank you... Of course criticism to the LEICA M9 is allowed here - but critical comments seeing these not as bugs too. No reason for personal insults. I'll point Leica to this thread - perhaps I can find something out. Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wls.shanghai Posted October 15, 2009 Share #33 Posted October 15, 2009 To be realistic, which I know is difficult for some people, the facts need to be considered. If you use the camera in a way that it was NOT designed to work eg. making pics with cap on, DON'T blame the camera for stuff ups. Blame yourself! If the camera does have a bug, quite possibly it may, then it is reasonable to expect that it will be addressed along with other issues, given the appropriate time (which I for one cannot predict). If you want to compare apples with oranges, you should be posting on the "fresh fruit forum." Finally, consider the nature of the company you are buying from. A small, by global standards, largely/partly hand made manufacturer. By definition there must be some room for variation, and of course there is. If you are not comfortable with the offering, leave it alone and opt for more predictable "middle of the road" offerings from Japan. Just basic shopping advice. I practice it in the markets every week and always get what I'm expecting. very unfriendly & insulting post. I don't know, why you not get barred from the FORUM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 15, 2009 Share #34 Posted October 15, 2009 ... I'll point Leica to this thread - perhaps I can find something out. Andreas Thank You! That's the right way to make discussions like this useful for every user and for Leica as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted October 15, 2009 Share #35 Posted October 15, 2009 Well Moderman, you seem to have taken offense at what was intended to be no more than a bit of impatience on my part with what (to me) seems to be ad nauseum comparisons of how nikon and canon are better than Leica and so on. Thread after thread. Hence my 'apples and oranges' reference. To continue the theme, I later 'invented' the fresh fruit forum which could have only referred to my own comment. Aussie humour. Maybe you don't get it. A lot don't. As far as my serious remarks go regarding 'user error'. That is a fact. Sorry if you can't see it, but any bug, error, whatever, in the camera, which I did acknowledge the possibility of, was precipitated by the user. In my book, that is the cause of the problem. The consequence that I suspect you may be referring to may be the 'bug'. I don't know so I won't argue it. So my original premise of user error stands. Incidentally, my M7 does the same as yours, but I always know I cause it to happen. Again, user error. Let's be clear on all of that, whether we like it or not. Regarding my 'random drivel?', I think you posed that as a question so the the answer is no! The 'sanctimonious bunk' as you call it is inaccurate interpretation. Read it again and consider the intention, not your interpretation. Finally I never addressed any of the forgoing comments to you in particular, but intended them as general comment. If you have been personally offended, I apologize for that. It was not the intention to be personal in my comments, however I accept that you have been. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted October 15, 2009 Share #36 Posted October 15, 2009 very unfriendly & insulting post.I don't know, why you not get barred from the FORUM. wls.shanghai, I beg to differ with your opinion. I have insulted no one that I know and stating the facts may, in your opinion, be unfriendly but I see what I said as honest. You don't have to like it but please point out to me where I have been dishonest. Otherwise, control your comments as you would have me do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 15, 2009 Share #37 Posted October 15, 2009 ...As far as my serious remarks go regarding 'user error'. That is a fact. Sorry if you can't see it, but any bug, error, whatever, in the camera, which I did acknowledge the possibility of, was precipitated by the user. In my book, that is the cause of the problem. The consequence that I suspect you may be referring to may be the 'bug'. I don't know so I won't argue it. So my original premise of user error stands. Incidentally, my M7 does the same as yours, but I always know I cause it to happen. Again, user error. Let's be clear on all of that, whether we like it or not. ... I can agree with you, that leaving a cap on the lens, when taking a photo, is user errror. I can also agree that the user's error is the cause for camera's reaction of falling dead: if one had not left the cap in front of the lens when taking a photo, the camera would not have staid working to record the file for too long, and one would not have shut it off, so it would not have fallen dead (not sure, whether my if-clauses aren't user errors as well). But what are the consequences of the user's error? Is the user to be punished by the camera going on strike? Is the camera hurt by this error and now rejecting to play with him? Or should it say: o.k., it was your error, i told you, just try again? I think this is all we can demand from Leica: even if the user is dull and commits an error, the camera should allow him to have another try without removing the battery and putting it back. I like to use the M8 with a Visoflex, and would like to do the same with a M9, if I had one. Sometimes the lever of the Viso triggers the shutter before the mirror of the Viso is removed. Same effect as with the lens cap: The camera takes a black picture and keeps on working. No bug in the camera, no user's error, just the result of two components not fitting 100% exactly together. They were never made to fit together, so no reason to blame Leica. But to use a Viso with the M8 is great fun and for an unprofessional, not up-to-date, crazy consumer like me, it means a big attraction to use Leica at all. With no other system you are able to use all those crazy combinations. I won't even think of looking at any other camera- or lens trademark as long as I am able to use all those silly combinations with a Leica. Now I imagine, I have the whole camera+Viso+lens setup on my tripod and I want to shut off the camera. It falls dead. I have to remove the camera from the tripod, remove the bottom plate, remove the battery, put it back, put the bottom plate back, fix the camera with Viso and lens again and try again... I think I would do this three times, but before having the fourth time, I throw all the crazy Viso-Leica stuff in a corner and never look at it again. Perhaps I will loose a big part of my former attraction to Leica. Other producers, which don't make crazy things like a combination of a Visoflex and a digital cam and are just a bore, will become more attractive for me. Little causes may have effects. All I need as a silly, not up-to-date Leica user, is that the camera will work again after you have switched it off - even after having committed an error or after having used it with a crazy Visoflex. Effects of little causes can be limited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted October 15, 2009 Share #38 Posted October 15, 2009 UliWer, I think we are in agreement on what you said. We all do make mistakes using our cameras, certainly includes me. Now, it would appear there are some 'bugs' in the new M9, so some say. If that is so, I agree it is reasonable that Leica address those 'bugs' or whatever they turn out to be. I am also confident, as I think I said somewhere earlier on, that Leica will address a number of issues that are evident. A time frame for that is probably dependent on factors we cannot be aware of so when it will happen is anybodies guess, but my prediction is that anything with a reasonable solution will will not be too long coming. Let's wait and see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 15, 2009 Share #39 Posted October 15, 2009 Another bug to be reported, not user error. I thought I would blow clean the sensor. Having gone into sensor clean on the menu and confirmed that, when I pressed the shutter button nothing happened. Camera was totally unresponsive. Had to remove the battery. Started again, and this time it worked perfectly, so no it was not an uncharged battery. Please point Leica to this post as well as others in this thread. I'm afraid it must be stated that there does seem to be quite a lot of deja vu happening as we now have an M9 instead of an M8. As I've experienced similar things (not with the sensor clean) on the M8 I did think that Leica would have learnt enough to prevent it all happening again. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 15, 2009 Share #40 Posted October 15, 2009 ...Let's wait and see. I am patient - with the Viso as well as with my decision whether I should buy a M9. I agree with you, that we can be confident, Leica will see the issues and will work to address them in due time. My personal impression was, that those battery/freeze-down issues were solved for the M8 after an update last year, since I had some in the beginning, but none after this update. Though other users report they still have them with the M8. Hearing of those issues again with the M9 might lead to speculations about a principal weakness in the electircity/electronics of the system. Everybody was happy that the M9 uses the same batteries as the M8. I can think of the outcry we would have had here, if they changed the battery. Though perhaps Leica had to compomise: keeping an energy device which may be not completely stable enough for the camera or introducing a new one which cuts off the M9 from it's precedessor. Let's hope for the wonders of a strong software as a backbone for hardware with a certain softness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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