peterv Posted October 13, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) British Journal of Photography - Leica defends its S2 camera [Medium Format - 5/5] A lot of negative remarks concerning the S2 and marketing talk from the usual suspects... I would very much like to see some real world image samples by now. Right now I'm very anxious to know if I should start selling off gear to finance the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Hi peterv, Take a look here BJP: Leica defends its S2 camera. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stevelap Posted October 13, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 13, 2009 A good response by David Bell and Leica I think. By refusing to get drawn into a slanging match they take the moral high ground, and who can argue with a 'let customers and the market decide' gambit. All they need now is to get S2's into customer's hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted October 13, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 13, 2009 A good response by David Bell and Leica I think. By refusing to get drawn into a slanging match they take the moral high ground, and who can argue with a 'let customers and the market decide' gambit. All they need now is to get S2's into customer's hands. Agree 100% Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted October 13, 2009 Share #4 Posted October 13, 2009 Very clever reply, moreover it is true, "pics" not "words" that's all. Hasselblad etc. are (and should be) scared. Leica do actually know what they are doing, in terms of performance this is undisputed, in terms of marketing they are learning fast. Especially in how to transform a disadvantage into an advantage (think M9 delivery & desirability). This reminds me of a discussion with people from the consumer product division of the company I used to work for. They were arguing that the quality of toothpaste was irrelevant, it was only marketing. Same applied to shampoo etc. In fact this is not true, people do decide on quality, but there is no fast buck as the differences are subtle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted October 13, 2009 Share #5 Posted October 13, 2009 The best photographic tools for the true professional market have never needed much advertising. They are mostly known and spread by word of mouth within the community. Prosumers and hobbyists might be turned on by slick advertising, but serious professionals often find that approach to be unnecessary and trite. Leica doesn't need to defend the fact that they built the best commercially available DSLR in history. The real question is whether or not there are enough highly skilled craftsman left in the industry to support a serious tool like the S2. My experience is that the current generation of commercial photographers are producting sub-standard work in terms of craftsmanship and that leads me doubt their potential interest in the S2. However, I do believe that the current economic crisis is going to purge a lot of people from the industry that should never have been in it in the first place. For this reason, I'm very bullish on the S2 for the market that will exist 5 or 10 years down the road. Hopefully, that isn't too far in the future for Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackart Posted October 14, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 14, 2009 I really liked Hassi reply: Christian Poulsen at Hasselblad has called the S2 a ghost product. ‘The S2 is a fantastic concept. It’s the answer to all of the customers’ wishes,’ he says. ‘Everything is actually there, aside from the camera. Leica is very clever, but the S2 is a ghost. We question whether it can do what they say it can do. That’s the issue for us.’ So, if S2 is not a ghost, then what? People in Hasselblad are right now very nerveus about Leica and S2. They say, that S2 style cam was actually Hasselblads concept. Now they do mistakes by lowering prices as much as 40% and cancelling buy-back program. Customers unhappy. Hasselblad shouldn't be so nerveos. http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=869922 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted October 14, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) jackart, great observations Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewittehd Posted October 16, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 16, 2009 Looks like Hasselblad is more worried about Canon and Nikon :-) http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=870014 Jean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted W Posted November 2, 2009 Share #9 Posted November 2, 2009 I'm not sure I understand why Hasselblad should be nervous. The S2, when it appears, will no doubt be a fine camera, but it will cost more than the comparable Hasselblad, do the same thing, and will not be upgradeable in the manner of going to a new back. The S2 at a comparable or lower cost than the equivalent Hasselblad? Maybe then it would steal some market share. But maybe the margins are better on the camera and they don't have to move that many. Who knows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted November 2, 2009 Share #10 Posted November 2, 2009 The H4D-50 (they don't offer a current sensor with smaller sensor) will cost about 20000€, the Phase 645 with P40+ 17000€ and the S2 approx. 16000€ (German prices without tax). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted November 3, 2009 Share #11 Posted November 3, 2009 If you compare to Hasselblad, the H3D2/39 including 80mm lens you get for €15.990.- in Europe excl. VAT. This is definitely a better price than the S2 without lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 3, 2009 Share #12 Posted November 3, 2009 It seems Phase One is defending lowering the quality level for digital gear because of an alledged short life of the digital part. I wonder what professionals will think of mechanical lower quality of Phase One products. He mentions lenses in this context too:confused: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted November 3, 2009 Share #13 Posted November 3, 2009 The best photographic tools for the true professional market have never needed much advertising. They are mostly known and spread by word of mouth within the community. Prosumers and hobbyists might be turned on by slick advertising, but serious professionals often find that approach to be unnecessary and trite. Leica doesn't need to defend the fact that they built the best commercially available DSLR in history. The real question is whether or not there are enough highly skilled craftsman left in the industry to support a serious tool like the S2. My experience is that the current generation of commercial photographers are producting sub-standard work in terms of craftsmanship and that leads me doubt their potential interest in the S2. However, I do believe that the current economic crisis is going to purge a lot of people from the industry that should never have been in it in the first place. For this reason, I'm very bullish on the S2 for the market that will exist 5 or 10 years down the road. Hopefully, that isn't too far in the future for Leica. 1) I agree with your statement on current generation of professional photographers. But while I agree I wonder also if they would have a real chance to do their work different as they do today? 2) I think you mean you are bullish for the market of the S System in 5 or 10 years down the road, the S2 will by then be nothing more than a museum photographic tool and there should be already an S4 or S5 .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 7, 2009 Share #14 Posted November 7, 2009 It seems Phase One is defending lowering the quality level for digital gear because of an alledged short life of the digital part. I wonder what professionals will think of mechanical lower quality of Phase One products. He mentions lenses in this context too:confused: Phase one observation took my attention too... but, as mainly a manufacturer of digital backs, at the end he's simply and trivially defending his role... "keep your camera and change its digital back as technology evolves" ... obvious he doesn't endorse the S2 concept; Leica answer is well balanced, I'd say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 9, 2009 Share #15 Posted November 9, 2009 A few thoughts and questions: I wonder how many arm chair "professionals" here are actually planning on plunking down upwards of $55,000. for a basic four lens S2 pro system with the professional level back-up service? If one already uses MFD, I wonder how many will sacrifice their current system at the Leica alter, including all the lenses, in a "down buyers market" in order to switch to a somewhat limited S2 system where NO used items are available? A move that effectively increases the price of switching to the already breathtakingly expensive S2 by a hefty margin. In fact, I wonder how many here actual use a MFD system to earn their living? A living increasing choked by the world wide financial down-turn? The snide comments about poor pro quality may be true, however, it's the bean-counters at the clients that opened that Pandora's box and let out the mediocre demons. That relentless financial scenario has me fearing more for the really good shooters than I do the lesser ones. I also wonder about gaining prospects from the ranks of Canon 1DsMKIII and Nikon D3X users. The Jump from 7K to 23K per body, and from $1,500. for a pro lens to $5,000. for a standard focal length lens is a serious financial leap ... especially for those who have two 35mm DSLRs on the job ... one of which can shoot at ISOs no MFD would dream of. Is this S2 able to replace the performance characteristics of Pro Spec 35mm DSLRs, or is it like other MFD systems ... a supplement that rounds out or increases their capabilities? Here's the serious and sobering facts for someone like me and a lot of other professional shooters I know: For thousands of $ less than just the base S2 body, I can upgrade my proven on the job H3D-II/39 to a H4D/60 with the new "True Focus Lock system" for off-center focus recompose Autofocus without multiple focus points to screw around with. I already own and have paid for an entire system of lenses. And the digital back can be used on a tech camera using unparalleled optics with a full range of movements. Is this S2 a possible replacement for a full compliment of 35mm DSLR gear? That is something I will be investigating and testing in the next few weeks. -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted November 10, 2009 Share #16 Posted November 10, 2009 Good wondering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 10, 2009 Share #17 Posted November 10, 2009 We should not of course have expected any different from Leica's competitors - they are hardly likely to welcome the new camera or the unsettling effect it has had on the market with open arms. Their comments are somewhat unprofessional, however, and remind me of the Business Conduct Guidelines I had to comply with when I worked for IBM which prohibited us from casting aspersions about competitors' products. That said, the time Leica has taken to get the product to market - and we're not there yet - borders on the ridiculous. They will have invested countless millions (choose your currency) on the development and have yet to see any revenue to stem the financial haemorrhage. If I was one of their competitors, I'd be somewhat annoyed that this product has stalled the market and, like the little old lady in the Wendy's adverts, I'd be asking "Where's the Beef?". By any measure, the camera body is over-priced and, sensor aside, it's difficult to see just how the cost can be justified. Maybe it's the Maestro chip set which will be ruinously expensive when the development cost is spread over so few cameras. Had they been able to put it in the M9, not only would that camera have received a much needed performance boost but the cost of the S2 might well have been lower as well. The lenses seem better value, though of course the entry ticket of the body to be able to use them is a significant hurdle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted November 11, 2009 Share #18 Posted November 11, 2009 More than a year ago Leica said the S2 would make economic sense only because the expected technology spin off on the M9 and R10. As of now the S2 isn't out yet, the R10 has been cancelled altogether, while the M9 does not use any of the expensive S2 technology and apparently can't be produced in sufficient numbers to meet demand. So, where does that leave Leica profits right now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 19, 2009 Share #19 Posted November 19, 2009 BTW - Christian Poulsen, the Hassy CEO who calls the S2 a "ghost camera" in the above article and elesewhere - was fired by Hassy today, 11/19/2009. See Luminous-Landscape lead item for today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleere Posted November 19, 2009 Share #20 Posted November 19, 2009 I've read the BJP report and was surprised at BJP's remark that insinuated something is amiss. That is out of character for BJP as they are normally fairly restrained. I also thought Hasselblad's Chriastian Poulsen's comments about a ghost product being something he might live to regret. I use the Hasselblad HD39 for my studio work, which is exclusively product shots and the camera is amazing for that purpose. The quality is astonishing, particularly as it does not have an anti aliasing filter in front of the sensor. It is a great camera on a tripod. Off a tripod it is close to useless unless you are using flash to eliminate the effects of mirror vibration. It is also very bulky and ergonomically leaves a lot to be desired. It also is very poor at higher ISO. Therefore, Mr Poulsen is not speaking from a position of strength. The S2 on the other hand is the same size as my Nikon D3 and looks and probably feels like a DSLR. If Leica can deliver the quality of Hasselblad in a smaller more manageable body I am sure all the fashion photographers on the planet will be voting with their feet. http://www.pens.co.uk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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