Do IR-filters completely fix skin-tones?

[plasticman]

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If anyone is willing to help with some examples., I'd really appreciate it.

I've followed the discussions over the years, and searched the forum again now, but I can't find any definitive answers. The images I've seen that compare before/after sometimes seem to me to introduce a slight green cast instead of the magenta cast which is being removed.

 

I finally bought an M8 but without wanting to get into any general discussions I'm still not happy with the way that skin-tones are rendered without the IR filters, and I have the option of returning the camera tomorrow if I consider the problem won't be fixed by the filters.

 

I'll be away from the computer until tomorrow morning, but if anyone has a constructive contribution I'd really appreciate the input - I'm actually really keen to keep the camera and I've been agonizing horribly about this problem, but right now I just can't live with the way the camera renders skin - especially the thin skin of my 12-week old daughter who will be the main model of my photography (for at least the next 20 years I imagine)...

 

Below is a quick test shot where I tried to fix a very magenta child by adjusting curves, but it caused a strange posterization that you can see in the 100% crop image. I'm not interested in the pixel-peeping in this case, I'm simply worried about how this would print.

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[farnz]

Mani,

 

Congratulations on both your new daughter and your new camera!

 

I see this as a partly subjective question and only you will know the answer because each of us renders colour slightly differently. I presume that there's no possibility of borrowing an IR cut filter before you have to make your decision?

 

I'm afraid I can't offer 'before and after' shots but, as you're no doubt familiar, the wealth of informed opinion is that the IR cut filters remove a redness that results from infrared reflections off blood vessels near to the surface. Does this cause a green cast? It's not something I've noticed.

 

I realise this is not the response you were looking for but I hope it's of some help.

 

Pete.

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[Shootist]

Not using IR cut filters changes all colors. Without filters IR light is allowed in to the image.

Simple fact is you need IR cut filters. There is no good way to judge the colors from the M8 if you don't use them.

Maybe you should just return the M8 and move to a camera that pleases your eye better.

 

This is a crop from a much larger image I took today with a 35mm Cron ASPH with Leica UV/IR cut filter. As far as I can tell all colors are rendered correctly.

The lady has a whiter tone and the gentleman a redder tone.

 

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[RobertW]

ir-cut filters definitely help with the purples and greens.

 

For skin tones rendering, I guess your talking more about either:

- white balance or

- the lens manufacturer.

 

For the white balance issue, you can always use a grey card to get the closest colour match.

 

Different manufacturer's lenses do have some variation in the colour, such as the CV 35 f/1.2, while a fantastic lens, does leave a slightly pinkish tinge, which can be removed in pp.

 

Presumably, you're taking pictures in RAW, to get the best out of the M8. If you are using jpegs, then you'll likely be disappointed with the results.

 

Best,

Rob

[ho_co]

Mani--

I assume by "IR-filter" you mean the Leica-recommended UV/IR Cut filter, not an IR-pass filter or an IR-absorptive filter.

 

I wouldn't even think of shooting color with the M8 without UV/IR Cut filter.

 

Will the UV/IR Cut filter completely correct for all different types of lighting and all different colors of skin and make post-processing unnecessary? No.

 

Since you can't see IR but the M8 can, you can't tell ahead of time how the IR will affect an image. The UV/IR Cut filter simply brings the camera back to a relatively neutral color rendition from which to begin your corrections.

 

That is, without the UV/IR Cut filter you will have a heck of a time getting colors right. With it, you'll be able to get colors right with little to no problem.

 

I think for most M8 users, the UV/IR Cut filter isn't a take-it-or-leave-it item like a UVa, but a necessity.

[Gentleman Villain]

Skintones aren't an exact science. Each person has his own view of what makes for a pleasing skintone. Neutral color balance doesn't always translate into pleasing skintones. Sometimes neutral color balance can be terribly clinical and sterile. The best skintones often derive from color balances that aren't exactly neutral.

 

Color isn't the only thing factor in achieving pleasing skintones. Contrast has a lot to do with it too. The reason I got turned onto Leica was because their lenses have a very balanced contrast which can be forgiving on people. Extremely contrasty modern lenses like Zeiss can often be brutal on skintones because they exaggerate every little pore, discoloration or blotchy spot on a subject's face.

[grduprey]

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Not using IR cut filters changes all colors. Without filters IR light is allowed in to the image.

Simple fact is you need IR cut filters. There is no good way to judge the colors from the M8 if you don't use them.

Maybe you should just return the M8 and move to a camera that pleases your eye better.

 

This is a crop from a much larger image I took today with a 35mm Cron ASPH with Leica UV/IR cut filter. As far as I can tell all colors are rendered correctly.

The lady has a whiter tone and the gentleman a redder tone.

 

[ATTACH]120039[/ATTACH]

 

I have been shooting with my 21 Elmarit Asph without a UV/IR filter for over 6 months and all colors have, so far been right on. I have not seen any false color on the skin of my subjects, ever. In almost 2 years of shooting with my M8, I have had only a handful of images with the dreaded Magenta Cast. I will also add, that the 21 is my only lens without the UV/IR filter.

 

Gene

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Gene,

 

That's hugely interesting.. wonder if either the lens is IR treated in production, or if the glass of that lens have IR block properties.?

 

Im sure Leica could technically speaking treat all their lenses in production. But might not want to do so because some people actually like to photograph IR.

[xrogers]

I didn't note skin tone differences before and after IR cut filters. I have found that with the filters color correction is much easier, so good skin tone is easier to maintain. I now typically do very little color correction, so avoid odd effects (like your example).

 

I generally like the M8 caucasian skin tones once I've got a good white balance. Never green for me, occasionally a touch red, usually excellent without changes.

 

I think you have to test the camera with a filter before you can make an informed decision.

 

Later,

 

Clyde

[plasticman]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I guess I'll have to see if the dealer has cut filters in 58mm thread for me to test.

 

The critical question for me here is not that I'm trying to get skin-tones that 'please me' or are subjectively to my taste: I have my child near to me all the time and I can see what the color of her skin is, and it's a pale creaminess. The shots I'm getting are therefore hard to color-balance because the tone is so far away from the original - but only in living things or IR-reflecting objects.

 

I hope it doesn't irritate forum members to say that other cameras are capturing the tone successfully - but I do want to persevere with the M8 and therefore my question.

 

Here's the capture out of C1 with color balance performed but no other hue changes made:

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[tofsla]

As far as I can tell all colors are rendered correctly.

The lady has a whiter tone and the gentleman a redder tone.

 

[ATTACH]120039[/ATTACH]

 

IMHO opinion, colors of this images look like colors from toys banned by US Govt for import from China - toxic and full of acid. If its true colors of lady and gentleman in question - they better see doctor. Rgrds

[farnz]

IMHO opinion, colors of this images look like colors from toys banned by US Govt for import from China - toxic and full of acid. If its true colors of lady and gentleman in question - they better see doctor. Rgrds

The skin tones look fine on my monitor; the poster mentioned that the male had "a redder" tone and that's what I see but not skin tones that I wouldn't expect to see with the naked eye.

 

I'm not sure what your reference to "colors from toys banned by the US Govt" is about. There's a bit of moire or chrominance noise in the table top but the colourful cushion looks to be silk covered, which I would expect to have vibrant colours, and none of the other colours looks out of place either.

 

Is your monitor properly calibrated?

 

Pete.

[Shootist]

The skin tones look fine on my monitor; the poster mentioned that the male had "a redder" tone and that's what I see but not skin tones that I wouldn't expect to see with the naked eye.

 

I'm not sure what your reference to "colors from toys banned by the US Govt" is about. There's a bit of moire or chrominance noise in the table top but the colourful cushion looks to be silk covered, which I would expect to have vibrant colours, and none of the other colours looks out of place either.

 

Is your monitor properly calibrated?

 

Pete.

 

 

Pete don't feed the trolls.

This guy has posted nothing but derogatory remarks. I don't even think he owns a Leica camera, let alone a M8. He's just looking to start a fight.

Check out some of his other posts. Then maybe you will do what I have done, "Ignore".

[farnz]

Pete don't feed the trolls.

This guy has posted nothing but derogatory remarks. I don't even think he owns a Leica camera, let alone a M8. He's just looking to start a fight.

Check out some of his other posts. Then maybe you will do what I have done, "Ignore".

Thanks for the heads up, Ed, I hadn't spotted this one.

 

Pete.

[Shootist]

Thanks for the heads up, Ed, I hadn't spotted this one.

 

Pete.

You're Welcome Pete.

[farnz]

Mani,

 

You might find this thread about M8 profiles interesting because it asks the question whether the raw developer has a significant effect on skin tone with a particularly good example of where it has.

 

One developer produced reddish tones as in the picture of your lovely daughter and the other produced much more natural looking tones.

 

Pete.

[rob_w]

I have one lens (out of 4) without a UV/IR filter and every now and again it gives me exactly the problem you describe in your original posting -- there is too much reddish/pinkish tone in the skin and nothing I do corrects it properly and completely.

 

Of course, skin tones may need to be adjusted for many other reasons, generally however I am very pleased with the results straight out of the M8 using current firmware.

 

The absence of an UV/IR filter can cause problems specifically, IMHO. Using the camera without the filter is a lottery, much as I dislike using the filter.

 

Robert

[plasticman]

Mani,

You might find this thread about M8 profiles interesting because it asks the question whether the raw developer has a significant effect on skin tone with a particularly good example of where it has.

One developer produced reddish tones as in the picture of your lovely daughter and the other produced much more natural looking tones.

Pete.

 

Thanks Pete - those images do look like the problem I'm having. I'll have to try some RAW-developer demos again, and see if any of them solves the problem.

 

I still have the camera this far anyway...