ChrisC Posted July 13, 2007 Share #1 Posted July 13, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have the latest 24 Elmarit. Can anyone describe to me where the nodal point lies in this lens? As you may have guessed - I have some panoramas in mind. .................Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 13, 2007 Posted July 13, 2007 Hi ChrisC, Take a look here Nodal Point, 24 Elmarit?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
okram Posted July 13, 2007 Share #2 Posted July 13, 2007 Should be very close to (or at) diaphragm plain. There are two nodal points, and the one you are looking for is the result of mathematical formula- the third one in the mathematical middle-main nodal point.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted July 13, 2007 Marko - Thank you, but I did not want to presume that the Nodal Point is coincident with the diaphragm plane. If the point is either in front of, or behind the plane, I would like to know as it makes a difference. ...... the third one in the mathematical middle-main nodal point.... Sorry Marko; I don't understand this last sentence. .................Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Branch Posted July 13, 2007 Share #4 Posted July 13, 2007 The Leica literature states that: - "Entrance Pupil 20.7mm (related to the first element surface in light direction)". I believe this is what you need and why Leica publish this data. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted July 13, 2007 ...."Entrance Pupil 20.7mm (related to the first element surface in light direction)"..... Peter - Thank you for this information. By my reckoning that's coincident with close to the rear of the focusing ring when focused on middle distance. If that doesn't sound right I'd be grateful for a correction. ................Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 14, 2007 Share #6 Posted July 14, 2007 Chris-- I'm not into panoramas, but I believe you want the rear nodal point rather than the front one. You can see it by looking at where the diaphragm appears to be when you look into the rear of the lens. That's what I got told when I commented in another thread about nodal points, so my comment here is probably as incorrect as the one then. If I were you, I'd ask at a forum of panorama makers. Apparently they refer to "the nodal point," even though there are two. Since they know which one they're referring to, they just shorten the expression. In other words: Ask there, "Which nodal point do I want, front or rear?" Then get the location from someone here more knowledgeable than I. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 14, 2007 Share #7 Posted July 14, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I would take a more pragmatic approach, and try both out on the same panorama, and see which one gives the best results (if you can see the difference). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted July 14, 2007 Share #8 Posted July 14, 2007 Yep, I agree with Carsten: if you have the camera and the lens then 'suck it and see'. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 14, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted July 14, 2007 Howard - thank you; prior to this thread I had not considered I would have a choice of Nodal Points. Like buses; you wait for one, and then two come along. [EDIT] - Are the two Nodal Points equally distanced either side of the aperture plane? If yes; then if I knew that distance, I can determine their locations. ..... try both out on the same panorama...... Carsten, Pete. - Thank you, but unfortunately the trial and error strategy is not an option. The M8 financial black hole that I have fallen into means that I am under resourced in computing power and necessary software. I will make my panorama files, then put them aside in folders for processing at a later date - hence my need to be photographing individual files fairly accurately from the outset. ...............Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 14, 2007 Share #10 Posted July 14, 2007 Chris, download the demo version of Autopano Pro. It renders full size, but with a stamp, so you can test it out. Let it run overnight if you must. Windows and Mac. I think it is really worth figuring out in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlm Posted July 15, 2007 Share #11 Posted July 15, 2007 this guy has an extensive bit about panoramas. you find the operative "nodal point" by trial and error. Creating Ultra Wide Panoramas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Branch Posted July 16, 2007 Share #12 Posted July 16, 2007 this guy has an extensive bit about panoramas. you find the operative "nodal point" by trial and error. Creating Ultra Wide Panoramas This may be a help - I personally doubt it - but my strong advice if you attempt the trial and error route is to start with the data Leica supply for this lens and set the point about which you rotate the camera/lens assembly under the entrance pupil - i.e. the position from which the lens "sees" the world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlm Posted July 16, 2007 Share #13 Posted July 16, 2007 info seems sensible to me. here is another: Finding the Nodal Point of a Lens and another: Photography Reviews, How-To, and Galleries of Digital Grin - powered by SmugMug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 16, 2007 Share #14 Posted July 16, 2007 Are the two Nodal Points equally distanced either side of the aperture plane? If yes; then if I knew that distance, I can determine their locations. Chris-- Sorry to be late in responding. Others have given you good links in the meantime. No, nodal points are not necessarily equidistant from the aperture plane. In some telephoto designs, the rear nodal point may actually be in front of the front nodal point. Caveat: I'm assuming that front and rear nodal points are the same as entrance and exit pupils, but I'm not sure that's the case. You can see the entrance pupil by stopping the lens down and looking in from the front. The apparent location of the aperture is the entrance pupil. Similarly, you can see the exit pupil by stopping the lens down and looking in from the rear. The apparent location of the aperture is the exit pupil. The only things I know are that 1) panoramas as made by panorama specialists require specific lens knowledge; and that 2) I'm trying to be helpful but may be helplessly confused on these matters. Good luck! --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Branch Posted July 17, 2007 Share #15 Posted July 17, 2007 info seems sensible to me. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I have no doubt that the information regarding panoramic photography is sound and valuable to an inexperienced person. My point is that it seems a lot of effort to find the entrance pupil by trial and error, and with uncertain accuracy, when Leica have given us the information to the nearest 0.1mm. I'd skip the trial and error bit and start immediately by using the Leica data. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share #16 Posted July 20, 2007 Thank you all for your help. I have shot some trial panoramas, but I'm behind in my processing. The image below is a fairly quick and dirty hand stitch of two horizontals from in-camera M8 Jpegs, mostly to see whether it was possible; and it is - but not without some head scratching. Digital panoramas is an area where the DSLR has advantages for setting up a panorama 'head', but the M8 is the path I have chosen so I'll see what can be done. The links and advice is all useful, many thanks. .................Chris Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/28897-nodal-point-24-elmarit/?do=findComment&comment=309969'>More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 20, 2007 Share #17 Posted July 20, 2007 Wow, Chris, nice work! Very nice dynamics--how close was the camera to the ground? The figure in the background gives a sense of scale that really highlights the sense of distance. (If it's not a person, don't tell me. ) Keep at it! If this is the kind of thing a person can do knowing what he's doing, I can see why so many people like to do panoramas! Thanks for posting. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khun_k Posted July 20, 2007 Share #18 Posted July 20, 2007 Nodal point is more important for shots involve near object and distant object, but if you were shooting distant view, it is less critical, but however, getting the nodal point right will bring the successful panoramic picture. The nodal point, as I did with my lens, was found thru trial and error. You can set up straight poles in your house, each role with 2 poles, 50cm apart, and with few minutes work, you will find it. The camera with live view will be a lot easier to find in this case. I just came back from Tibet with M8, and since most of time was on the run, driving and so on, so there are many shots I made were in fact handheld, qucik snap a series of pictures (mostly with 28/2 or 35/1.4 ASPH, happened to be the lens I traveled with) and stitched them using CS3 - with quite impressive result. I also did the stitch using medium format DB, with H3D39 and use 100/2.2 lens (which is a bit tele in medium format) also with very good result. What I learned is CS3 does great job in stitching, but when the picture became really big - something like 28,000 pixles wide, the sharpening function won't work, but for pictures within 20,000 pixles wide, I found it workable and does a splendid work. The first image was M8 with 35/1.4 ASPH, 3 capture stitched. 2nd image was M8 with 35/1.4ASPH, 6 image stitched. The 3rd was H3D39 with HC 100/2.2, 4 image stitched. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/28897-nodal-point-24-elmarit/?do=findComment&comment=310011'>More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 20, 2007 Share #19 Posted July 20, 2007 Kuhn_k, that's impressive stuff! Looks as if you had good weather in Tibet, and probably enjoyed the trip. And it looks as if CS3's panorama stitching is greatly improved over CS2's. If you guys don't quit it, you're going to get me interested in panoramas too! --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted July 20, 2007 Share #20 Posted July 20, 2007 Hi Chris, Khun-k and others, Please let me present some first hand experience with the M8 and pano's. Much more mundane than Khun's wonderfull Tibet panos, but I hope instructive. Here is a pano, stiched together from 12 upright Leica M8 highres JPG's, made from my balcony in Amsterdam, followed by the M8 setup used. Important are the following: - a good tripod - a level base. I use the Novoflex (NOVOFLEX Praezisionstechnik GmbH and http://www.novoflex.de) panorama base, wich has an inbuild bubble level and a smoothly turning 360 degree plate. co_sz3 Which as a setup would suffice form horizontal landscape panorama's (see further on). Costs about 100 EUR. IMHO the first - and perhaps only, depending on your targets - indispensible thingy you would need. - any setup that would allow you to position the nodal point of you lens directly above the swivel point of you camera. Here you see a setup a German instrument maker, which I bought from a friend for another 100 EUR. Aluminium, and weighs nothing. More expensive solutions, up to 650 EUR, at Novoflex herunder: co_sz10 VR system PRO , and from: Really Right Stuff - New Items Why upright? You have more vertical coverage, and ultimately more resolution in you endresult. Is that all necessary: yes and no. See here some landscape panorama's, wich were made in April/May without tripod, just shooting up to 25 upright pictures from left to right, and stitched in CS2, and PtGui ( Photo stitching software 360 degree Panorama image software - PTGui): Scotland: Corrour 2007 I do not know about the CS3's stitching, which should have vastly improved over CS2, but I can only say that PTgui lives in another world, that of Panorama experts, and cost only about 55 EUR. A steal for what it can do. The nodal point thing is really only necessary when you are closer to your subject than with a landscape on infinitive. I have'nt tried to find out yet, but when things come closer than 20 meters, the lack of nodal point positioning would get visible I think. Or would make things difficult for you software. All these programs can even do with unlevel horizons, but you will loose pixels through intrapolation when you present imperfect material to you program. The better programs can make the pano's superpixel wide, like 20000, which seems silly, but indeed is marvelous to zoom in unto in film (HD), and a friend of mine already uses it very regularly in industrial photography, such as with pictures of big complicated machines. A caveat: pano photography is very addictive! And then I have not even broached the possibiltiy of combining it with H(igh) D(dynamic) R(ange) photography! : Corrour Groupblog 2007: PTGUI HDR ( And next week I am off to Indonesia, to make volcano pano's on Lombok and Sumbawa. And what of palm fringed beaches :-)? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/28897-nodal-point-24-elmarit/?do=findComment&comment=310055'>More sharing options...
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