Opinions on collapsable summicron 50mm please

[antistatic]

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I am interested in it primarily for B&W film and want something a bit softer and lower contrast than the 50mm summilux aspherical that I already own (you know, elusive Leica glow ). Also its compact form factor appeals.

 

I am wondering what experience others have had with this lens?

[dcoombs]

It's one of my favorites for special, clean, look without being clinical. It's sharp, but not up to the modern lenses. Should be available cheaply.

 

Doug

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[antistatic]

Thanks Doug.

 

I just realized that I did not spell "collapsible" correctly. Should one be prevented from owning a lens if one can not spell its name?

 

I understand flare can be a problem. What hood would fit?

Edited April 28, 2009 by antistatic
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[dcoombs]

For years I used it w/o a hood, and had some flare from time to time. Then I found an old used one, Leica model IROOA, which was made for it. I think you could use any of the shades designed for 50mm lenses of the E39 size, though. Like the model # 12585.

 

Doug

Edited April 28, 2009 by dcoombs

[crbirchenhall]

I have a LTM version that came off a IIIf R/D and it has become my most favoured lens. I use a E39 hood designed for the 50mm Elmar f2.8.

[StS]

Not sure if this helps - since I have both lenses, I made a quick comparision out of the window. In my view the difference is evident. Both images at f/2.0, focus at the blooming tree.

 

The first image is (obviously) the 50 Summilux asph, the second one the collapsible 50 Summicron from 1954.

 

Stefan

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[UliWer]

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For years I used it w/o a hood, and had some flare from time to time. Then I found an old used one, Leica model IROOA, which was made for it. I think you could use any of the shades designed for 50mm lenses of the E39 size, though. Like the model # 12585.

 

Doug

 

The IROOA is certainly the most stylish for the Summicron.

 

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I always fear that the hoods which are more narrow like ITOOY or FISON show vignetting if you use it with the Summicron on film (certainly no problem on the M8). As far as i know, Leica never told that those narrow hoods were good for lenses with f 1:2 but always had wide to very wide versions for the Summar, Summitar and Summicron. I made some tests with the narrow hoods but unfortunately my film is not yet ready.

[antistatic]

I knew I could count on the forum to come through with answers and advice.

 

Thank you Doug and Chris.

 

Stefan, thanks for the comparison shots. That is pretty much what I am after. One person's reduced sharpness and contrast is another person's glow.

 

UliWer, the IROOA looks fantastic. Thanks for posting the pic.

[Dan States]

It's an outstanding lens as long as you get one in perfect optical condition. Shine a bright light through and look for fogging of any level. Pass on anything iffy. Also watch for the early ones that had an element that turns yellow.

 

With just a touch of knob twiddling you can get perfectly modern looking results! (apologies to the poster of this image, I just kicked it up a bit to see how close it can get to the new lens)

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[NZDavid]

Fogging is definitely an issue with the early Summicron collapsible; also, the front element is quite soft. Other options you might like to consider are a Summitar, an early Summilux or Summarit, or even a Summar with a bayonet adapter. An interesting option for portraits that don't have to be bitingly sharp.

[antistatic]

Thanks David but I have already bitten the bullet and there is a collapsible cron winging its way to me. I think I got it for a fair price. It has recently had a CLA so I hope it will be good to go for another 50 years. I will post my impressions once it arrives.

[StS]

It's an outstanding lens as long as you get one in perfect optical condition. Shine a bright light through and look for fogging of any level. Pass on anything iffy. Also watch for the early ones that had an element that turns yellow.

 

With just a touch of knob twiddling you can get perfectly modern looking results! (apologies to the poster of this image, I just kicked it up a bit to see how close it can get to the new lens)

 

No issues with that. I didn't do any post processing of the Summicron image to have comparable conditions for both photos.

 

In my view the Summicron is not poor, it just gives a different look, the results are better than just 'acceptable' for larger prints, in my view.

[dcoombs]

Not sure if this helps - since I have both lenses, I made a quick comparision out of the window. In my view the difference is evident. Both images at f/2.0, focus at the blooming tree.

 

The first image is (obviously) the 50 Summilux asph, the second one the collapsible 50 Summicron from 1954.

 

Stefan

 

Interesting the difference is so evident. I wonder what they would look like at, say f5.6 or f8? That is, would the Summicron sharpen up noticeably.

 

Doug

[wizard]

Interesting the difference is so evident. I wonder what they would look like at, say f5.6 or f8? That is, would the Summicron sharpen up noticeably.

 

Doug

 

Yes, as with most older generation lenses, they are comparatively poor at full aperture, but improve significantly on stopping down. I recently did a comparison of two collapsible Summicrons and a current one (the LTM special edition) and was surprised at how close they are at 5.6 or 8. Even the color balance is almost the same. From normal viewing distance there was no discernible difference looking at a projected slide. Approaching very close, you could see that the current Summicron shows smaller details sharper and with more (micro)contrast, so it is in fact the better lens. At full aperture, however, the difference is readily visible. The old Summicron at full aperture is comparatively soft and of low contrast, whereas the current one is almost as good as stopped down. Stopping down to 2.8 already brings a big improvement with the old lens.

 

Andy

[thrid]

I have one of these, along with the Summicron DR and current Summicron-M.

 

Obviously the current version is the sharpest and displays the highest contrast.

 

The Summicron DR is very sharp with medium contrast and can compete against the current version, once you pass f4. It blooms beautifully around the highlights, displays low level scatter and in general looks best in b/w.

 

My example of the collapsible was fully serviced by Leica a few years ago. It is not as sharp as the other two, but it's far from being soft. At f2 it is soft, but once you hit f5.6 -f8 it becomes very, very sharp. If you have the lens properly cleaned (haze removed) it is surprisingly resistant to flare, but still blooms gently around specular highlights. Without the cleaning it may flare like a SOB. Overall the signature is very smooth, creamy and lush. Contrast is on the low side, but it's not anemic. Again, this lens is best at black and white work. As you probably already know HCB used one of these (without a hood) from 1954, untill his death a few years ago.

 

The big problem with the collapsible are the very soft coatings and glass. It is very difficult to find an example with a pristine front element. Wipe marks on the front aren't the end of the world, but marks on the rear could be a problem. Hold the lens up to a light and peer closely through it from behind. You need to be very, very careful when cleaning this lens. Not only are the coatings soft (dip coated?), but also the glass itself. Always use an optical tissue with cleaning fluid and let the weight of the wet tissue do most of the work. Therefore it is also necessary to use a competent repair man, who will not just wipe the internal coating off the elements. Try DAGcamera, Golden Touch, Kindermann or Leica.

 

For a shooter I prefer the Summicron DR / Rigid (same optical formula, different mount). I can preset focus to a certain distance and the ring will remain there (within reason). The ergonomics of the collapsible make doing that a little more challenging, but it work also (I secure focus with a piece of cloth tape...). To me the DR / Rigid offers the best of both worlds. It has the signature of a classic lens, but offers very high optical performance and excellent ergonomics.

[StS]

Today the sky is clearer, so I repeated the exercise, focus at infinity now. In my view the performance of the collapsible Summicron is much better already at 2.8 already.

 

f/2.0

f/2.8

f/4.0

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[StS]

A detail from the same images (collapsible Summicron again) - the church at f/2.0 and f/2.8

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[StS]

...and finally the Summilux 1.4/50 asph at f/1.4 (slightly overexposed, 1/8000 was not fast enough)

 

Again, the Summicron still does a fine job, especially, when stopped down, it is a bit unfair to compair it to one of the best lenses one can buy today. Otherwise one would wonder, what the optical development department did in the last 50 years....

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[antistatic]

Stefan, that is an impressive difference between 2.0 and 2.8

 

Thanks for the trouble you have taken for the comparison shots.

 

This makes me look forward to meeting my new lens even more.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[dcoombs]

Yes. Nicely done and thank you for taking the effort. The improvement in the Summicron stopped down from f2.0 is indeed dramatic.

 

Doug