Manolo Laguillo Posted February 21, 2012 Share #1 Posted February 21, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Good morning! I read it constantly in this forum: decisions are being made after looking at pictures published in the web.:eek: I mean this comparing pictures made with this lens with pictures made with that lens, for instance, but not taking into account how different the circumstances can be, of course. What sort of irrationality is happening? I would like to have an explanation: how can this be possible? What do you think? My explanation: When we need desperately reassurance we can easily fall in superstition. Cheers, Manolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Hi Manolo Laguillo, Take a look here How we decide between this and that?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Redridge Posted February 21, 2012 Share #2 Posted February 21, 2012 uummm, any link? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 21, 2012 Share #3 Posted February 21, 2012 A related sentiment expressed here recently by me. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 21, 2012 Share #4 Posted February 21, 2012 uummm, any link? See the post to which I responded in the above link. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 21, 2012 Share #5 Posted February 21, 2012 Not sure what is irrational here exactly. I can see more details on a good monitor and colors look always better than on any print to me. YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 22, 2012 Share #6 Posted February 22, 2012 The OP's point is that pictures vary in countless ways (lighting, subject, etc), not to mention unknown edits before a photo is posted, so lens (or camera) decisions made on that basis are foolhardy. Plus it's impossible to know if what one sees on one's own screen is the same as what someone else sees on another one. I can alter the look (unintentionally) of someone else's online pic, whereas a print is a print. I enjoy collecting and viewing prints, not monitors. That doesn't require explanation for anyone who appreciates a marvelous print on a beautiful paper. For me, that's a huge part of the joy of photography. Same with many well printed first edition photo books from the original photographer. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted February 22, 2012 Share #7 Posted February 22, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I actually think this system works pretty well, much better than in the 70's and 80's when we had nothing to go on except perhaps a magazine article, camera store employees or perhaps a fellow photographer for feedback. Our system of reviews and examples by actual owners gives at least some insight into the pluses and minus of of a particular item. Ebay and Amazon, as well as other online retailers, use very similar systems. Flawed, yes. Perfect, no. Better than the old way? IMHO, yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 22, 2012 Share #8 Posted February 22, 2012 much better than in the 70's and 80's when we had nothing to go on except perhaps a magazine article, camera store employees or perhaps a fellow photographer for feedback. Funny, I never relied on hearsay; not then, not now. I sometimes researched and sought feedback, but ultimately relied on the only way to really know...tried it for myself by photographing and making prints. I remember photo workshops with Fred Picker, the curmudgeonly chap who would invariably answer a question from a novice participant about whether "this worked better than that" (or some similar question) by saying..."Try it." Wise man. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manolo Laguillo Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share #9 Posted February 22, 2012 I will try to explain myself better. Someone living in Japan publishes in the web pictures, telling with what Leica M + lens they were made. Another person, living in Argentina, publishes yet another pictures, again with the data. A third person, living in France, compares them, and concludes that he (I don't say "she" because women are cleverer than men :-)) likes more the pictures from Argentina, and decides to buy that lens. I am exagerating a bit, of course, but not that much. :-) Comparisons are useful only when done in a strict controlled and repitible frame. Doing those tests is not difficult when the tester has a "scientific mentality". I very much appreciate the tests made by Puts or Reid, for instance. But it took a while 'till I arrived to the "state of trust" toward them. That's the point: to trust or not to trust. And because of that I said "irrationality" and "superstition". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wolfgang Sch Posted February 22, 2012 Share #10 Posted February 22, 2012 I agree with that what you mentioned in #9 Manolo. But examples and explanations in the Web which are showing weaknesses of lenses together with cameras had leading me to buy a specific lens not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustafasoleiman Posted February 22, 2012 Share #11 Posted February 22, 2012 Got off the wrong side of the bed this morning, have we... Considering that we have gone to war recently on the basis of some fuzzy pictures and some misinterpreted information, I would not worry too much about buying a lens on a similar basis... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fWord Posted February 22, 2012 Share #12 Posted February 22, 2012 Geez, I would love to have produced photos that compelled people to buy a certain lens I was using. The purpose of 'research' on the internet is to gather more information and to read opinions from a wide user base. I have so far been satisfied with virtually all the photography-related purchases I've made to date, based on the opinions and reviews on the internet. In some cases my expectations were exceeded, whereas in most other cases, the product met my expectations. There's nothing wrong with a little research, provided our mind can separate the wheat from the chaff and put less importance on any opinions from a fanboy or a hater. This is good news for some of us. Not all of us have access to equipment which we can exhaustively test before buying in order to see if it would meet our needs. For me, the way around this has been to actually BUY that piece of equipment second hand and at a price that would yield no loss if I actually found it unsuitable and needed to switch to something else. Buying and selling equipment is very time consuming however, time better spent doing other things. Hence, the internet research improves your chances of 'buying right', provided you know how to use that information to your advantage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted February 22, 2012 Share #13 Posted February 22, 2012 Funny, I never relied on hearsay; not then, not now. I sometimes researched and sought feedback, but ultimately relied on the only way to really know...tried it for myself by photographing and making prints. Jeff I would hardly call researching owner opinions and professional reviews "relying on hearsay", but rather evaluating the considered opinions of others who have gone before. Sure, you could just buy one of everything and try it for yourself, selling off the kit that didn't satisfy...but for the other 99% of the world gathering as much information as possible before making a multi thousand (Pound, Dollar, Euro) purchase is preferable to just spinning the wheel and hoping for the best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 22, 2012 Share #14 Posted February 22, 2012 Comparisons are useful only when done in a strict controlled and repitible frame. Doing those tests is not difficult when the tester has a "scientific mentality". An interesting point except that of course, most lenses are designed to take pictures with, not to perform arbitrary technical exercises;). The problem on the web is separating the accurate and valid from the opinionated and irrelevant:confused:. I would say that joining a forum like this one, reading it over a period of time, and becoming aware of those posters who make sense much of the time so that you appreciate whose opinion you may trust is as good a way as any of finding out information about equipment. (All that said, if we are discussing new Leica lenses then I'd be hard pushed to say that any are anything less than superb - a personal opinion based on ownership of several and reading here and elsewhere:eek:). When I read through some posts it often sounds to me as though decisions are frequently made on irrelevant performance grounds rather than actual need or requirements, so who am I to say anything. For example the choice between a f/1.4 or f/2 lens is surely about its speed and not its performance? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 22, 2012 Share #15 Posted February 22, 2012 I'm obviously a simple chap. My Leica buying has only ever been influenced by two factors. What focal length do I want? What can I afford? This has led me to buy some old and some new lenses, some Leica ones and some non-Leica ones. In all cases I've been very happy with the results and never worried about should I have got a version IV rather than a version III. As I say, I'm a simple chap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 22, 2012 Share #16 Posted February 22, 2012 Certain lenses have certain characteristics. Leica lenses have signatures more than most brands I know. You can see them easily from even small jpgs. You go on a forum to find what these characteristics are. What's not to understand? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted February 22, 2012 Share #17 Posted February 22, 2012 Steve, yours is a rational approach. Some posters come across as the kind of people who are filled with indecision. Often, however, the most basic questions are quite genuine and well-meant because the poster has no meaningful knowledge base to judge or decide. There is no substitute for visiting a good dealer and actually handling Leica camera bodies and lenses. No rash or rushed decisions. It is difficult nowadays even to obtain printed brochures, though a few exist. This forum does provide an excellent opportunity to approach an international body of more experienced Leica owners and users. I feel, on balance, there is an abundance of good well-informed advice available to those with genuine inquiries. Certainly I have been grateful, in the past, for some very fine and relevant advice which has helped me to decide on future purchases. I say 'in the past' because, for the time being, I have reached a happy equilibrium and am quite content with my present Leica kit which I enjoy immensely. (Goodness knows how long that will last! ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 22, 2012 Share #18 Posted February 22, 2012 Sure, you could just buy one of everything and try it for yourself, selling off the kit that didn't satisfy...but for the other 99% of the world gathering as much information as possible before making a multi thousand (Pound, Dollar, Euro) purchase is preferable to just spinning the wheel and hoping for the best. Yep, buy one of everything. Sure, that was my point. I get it now. Some of us are a bit more resourceful than that. I've done it over the years without having to spend much of anything, except my own time (often with dealer's cooperation) and an occasional rental fee. For those of us who don't have GAS and who understand their own needs and preferences, then the process isn't time consuming or expensive after a bit of sensible research (that doesn't include looking at someone else's pics on the web). And yes, anything I don't try for myself is hearsay. Just look at this forum on a regular basis and one can find opinions to suit virtually every view on any given topic. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 22, 2012 Share #19 Posted February 22, 2012 The original point of the OP is well taken: images by others can not be compared with things you make in your own workflow. But a forum like this does give some coherence in lens rankings. it is called swarm intelligence: the average of many opinions tends to be more accurate than that of any single photographer. In this way the forum can save you money and disappointments. Simple example: the reports on the Elmar 50/2.8 M appeared to be very accurate both in terms of technical and artistic impressions. When I saw the first images from my M9, there were no surprises, just a reliable performance with a pleasant signature. However, there is no replacement for your own experience with a lens. So borrowing a lens (thanks Paul!) or renting is really the way to go. There is something about the images you have made before of familiar scenes with your own workflow that is most convincing wether you want or need that lens or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 22, 2012 Share #20 Posted February 22, 2012 T the average of many opinions tends to be more accurate than that of any single photographer. Nonsense...my opinion is 100% accurate...for me; what others think is immaterial. Needs, style and preferences are everything. If I followed your logic, I would have bought an M9 instead of the M8.2, which is a better choice..for me. But, I had to try them to know. Reminds me of the old joke about the guy whose head was in the fridge, and whose feet were on fire...on average, he was comfortable. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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