MTF charts for first four S lenses

[guy_mancuso]

It's a good point Alan the DOF is paper thin at 2.8 no question. Here is a quicky I shot of my nephew when i got my Mamiya 150 2.8 ISO 200 1/1250 wide open at 2.8. It's handy but you need to be dead on the screws. Honestly 5.6 would serve you better here and still get great bokeh

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

It's a good point Alan the DOF is paper thin at 2.8 no question. Here is a quicky I shot of my nephew when i got my Mamiya 150 2.8 ISO 200 1/1250 wide open at 2.8. It's handy but you need to be dead on the screws. Honestly 5.6 would serve you better here and still get great bokeh

When I shot people on MF, I would often have my assistant hold up some contrasty text on a piece of paper next to their eyes to give me a focus target. But this could make the photos pretty static and even stopped down a bit, it was very easy for the focus to go slightly off if anyone moved a bit. This would be soft enough to cancel out any advantage of shooting MF in the first place (other than the finer grain.) However, the AF in current MF cameras and the S2 should make getting accurate focus much easier. I know that a lot of photographers who shoot tethered have their assistant or digital tech confirm focus as they shoot. In the case of shooting subjects who were moving (such as walking slowly,) I found it very difficult to follow focus with the old Hassies and my Rollei - even with the special bright screens. I haven't tried it with any of the AF MF cameras. But of course it is very easy on AF 35mm.

I guess the basic point I was trying to make is: Leica has a great tradition of high speed lenses that can be used wide open. This is important to a considerable number of shooters who use 35mm but may be much less important to most MF shooters.

Even when shooting people in a controlled environment, I more typically find myself needing to stop down quite a bit so the subjects can move throughout the scene and I can shoot quickly to capture fleeting expressions.

Here is an example of where I had to give the subjects a little room to move and interact. I guess it would have been different if I didn't mind if one of the girls would go out of focus. But perhaps my taste is also to have pretty deep focus.

[sdai]

Considering the 1.25x conversion factor, a 35mm on the S2 is equivalent to a 28mm on the M7 for an identical view angle so I did a quick dirty comparison between the 28mm Summicron-M and the 35mm f/2.5 CS by overlaying the MTF charts of both lenses at f/2.5(f/2.8) and f/5.6.

Blue lines are for the 35-S and red lines are for the 28-M-Cron, horizontal axis of the M lens has been scaled to about 74% of the S lens horizontal axis so you can see the M lens edges at 20mm and the S lens edges at 27mm.

Performance wise, they are almost identical in terms of contrast, resolution at f/2.5(f/2.8) are quite similar, the S lens has an edge in resolution at f/5.6 ... but that's not a surprise if the test target is the same, at an identical view angle the larger format lens of the same optical quality is bound to produce some higher resolution numbers.

A brand new 28 Summicron-M ASPH. is asking for US$4000, adding auto focus and a leaf shutter for larger format, how much would you bet on the 35/2.5 S lens?

I'm guessing its price would be around $6000-$8000 US, adding the cost of the body, 15000 Euros at least (based on reports from the Kina '08) - roughly 21500 US$ ... that's about US$30000 to kick start.

Must be the best bang of your bucks ... when I hit the powerball jackpot, I will also jump on board.

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by sdai

I'm guessing its price would be around $6000-$8000 US, adding the cost of the body, 15000 Euros at least (based on reports from the Kina '08) - roughly 21500 US$ ... that's about US$30000 to kick start.

I know where you are coming from in extrapolating that price. But they can't realistically expect to sell the lenses for that much. Most Hasselblad H series lenses are in the $3-$4 thousand range. ($2000 for the 80) I don't see how Leica can go higher than that.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by AlanG

I know where you are coming from in extrapolating that price. But they can't realistically expect to sell the lenses for that much. Most Hasselblad H series lenses are in the $3-$4 thousand range. ($2000 for the 80) I don't see how Leica can go higher than that.

Yes, I know ... but the HC lenses were assembled in Japanese sweat shops, German labor has to include union dues and paid vacation doubling or tripling the days Japanese workers can enjoy.

The multiplier is 2 if they are about the same quality ... would be 3 if the Leica lenses are "better", a special for the paying beta testers. It might head north considering currency fluctuations.

And I'm extremely conservative on the body price ... Dr. Kaufmann said he was trying hard to make it 15k Euros.

As a side note, I don't think Dr. Kaufmann really cares how many S2 he could sell at all. All he needs is a "flagship" to polish the brand, many folks will then believe Leica still has an edge over Canon and/or Nikon because they don't do "middle format" ... like those who can barely afford a C-class when dreaming about a S-class.

Leica's bread and butter still come from Ms, Rs, C luxes, D luxes and binoculars.

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by AlanG

When I shot people on MF, I would often have my assistant hold up some contrasty text on a piece of paper next to their eyes to give me a focus target. But this could make the photos pretty static and even stopped down a bit, it was very easy for the focus to go slightly off if anyone moved a bit. This would be soft enough to cancel out any advantage of shooting MF in the first place (other than the finer grain.) However, the AF in current MF cameras and the S2 should make getting accurate focus much easier. I know that a lot of photographers who shoot tethered have their assistant or digital tech confirm focus as they shoot. In the case of shooting subjects who were moving (such as walking slowly,) I found it very difficult to follow focus with the old Hassies and my Rollei - even with the special bright screens. I haven't tried it with any of the AF MF cameras. But of course it is very easy on AF 35mm.

I guess the basic point I was trying to make is: Leica has a great tradition of high speed lenses that can be used wide open. This is important to a considerable number of shooters who use 35mm but may be much less important to most MF shooters.

Even when shooting people in a controlled environment, I more typically find myself needing to stop down quite a bit so the subjects can move throughout the scene and I can shoot quickly to capture fleeting expressions.

Here is an example of where I had to give the subjects a little room to move and interact. I guess it would have been different if I didn't mind if one of the girls would go out of focus. But perhaps my taste is also to have pretty deep focus.

Given that situation Alan i think I would be no less than F11 otherwise like you said you can easily fall off the map with movement. Folks you lose about 2 stops with MF to 35mm so 5.6 would be roughly the same here in 35mm. Bottom line you need to be dead on the screws always.

Just a point the shot above at 2.8 would be like shooting a 75 lux wide open. Give or take some focal length there

[markus]

The MTF´s seem to be much better than these of the Hasselblad H-Lenses.

[carstenw]

Where can one find the Hasselblad MTF graphs?

[leicar7]

Welcome to Carl Zeiss Camera and Cine Lenses

MTFs for Zeiss lenses are at the above link.

[R2-D2]

Originally Posted by carstenw

Where can one find the Hasselblad MTF graphs?

Technical info - HC80

[R2-D2]

Originally Posted by leicar7

Welcome to Carl Zeiss Camera and Cine Lenses

MTFs for Zeiss lenses are at the above link.

You won't find any MTF graphs for the H lenses on the Zeiss web site since the H lenses are manufactured by Fuji...

[sdai]

One big difference you need to pay attention to when looking at the Zeiss MTF charts and the Leica charts is: Leica includes 5 lp/mm, 10 lp/mm, 20 lp/mm and 40 lp/mm curves while Zeiss only does 10, 20 and 40.

So you can ignore the highest, straightest pair on top of the Leica charts and only compare the rest 3 pairs ...

Don't forget, the picture height of Hasselblad V system is 56mm, a whopping 26mm more than the S2, so to resolve the same amount of details, while it may need only 70 lp/mm from the Hasselblad lens, the Leica S lens has to do 131 lp/mm.

The picture height of a full frame Hasselblad H is 42mm, 12 mm more than the S2, so if the HC lens resolves 70 lp/mm, the S lens has to do 98 lp/mm.

It's the same theory ... you don't want to compare any medium format lenses MTF with a 35mm lens' MTF, it won't make much sense.

The 35mm lens' MTF may look far better than the medium format, but the medium format will beat 35mm hands down in end results.

[guy_mancuso]

Good points Simon , you really do not need huge lp/mm with MF so it is deceiving. I get amazing results from pretty cheap Mamiya lenses. Reason I said several times big sensors need less than you think.

[guy_mancuso]

Classic example of that, used Mamiya 55mm lens Full than a 100 percent crop. This lens cost me 500 dollars. So it is not all MTF charts

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by sdai

Yes, I know ... but the HC lenses were assembled in Japanese sweat shops, German labor has to include union dues and paid vacation doubling or tripling the days Japanese workers can enjoy.

Sweatshops?

According to this 2003 report, Japan had the 17th highest per capita income and Germany was #22.

Per Capita Income Around the World

According to this article, the average Japanese worker puts in the second highest number of hours per year (to Americans.) Japan mandates 25 days of vacation per year. When I was in Hawaii recently, I noticed that there was a large number of Japanese tourist buying the most expensive items. From USA Today," Japanese visitors spend more on average in the islands than travelers from the U.S. mainland and other countries, making them valued customers for the state's tourism industry." "We're all concerned because Japan is still a much-sought-after and important market for the state," said Marsha Wienert, the state tourism liaison.

Work Week and Vacation Variances: Interesting Thing of the Day

Here is a Time magazine article form 1972 that explains how Japan got to where it is today and how it had good relations with its workers as it did it.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by AlanG

Sweatshops?

According to this 2003 report, Japan had the 17th highest per capita income and Germany was #22.

I didn't really mean it when I chose the word ... you know, but it's the instinct how Leica snobs (oops, another bad word) will likely try to disqualify Japanese products.

I've worked in both Germany and Japan so I know the total compensation of a Japanese worker is in no way comparable to a German employee who does a similar job.

Labor cost is unquestionably a primary constituent in Leica products' prices, and I don't see the company having any intention to manage it in the manner many other companies would adopt and they seem to hold a stance of a front row fashion designer betting on a wealthy clientele willing to pay for it at any price.

It's a decision only can be made by Leica's management and its employees together ... in a time when Loius Vuitoon, Hermes et al are sourcing goods from China. All German auto companies have factories there too.

When the world's creative talent can't have access to Leica's products because of their prohibitive price, what are they good for?

[markus]

MTF´s for Hasselblad HC-lenses:

H-System

[markus]

The sensor of the H3DII-31 is only 8 % bigger than the S2´s.
For the -39 and -50: they are 34 % bigger than the Leica´s.
And S2-sensor is 56 % bigger than 24x36 FF.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by markus

And S2-sensor is 56 % bigger than 24x36 FF.

You can also say that the S2 is 456% bigger than the 4/3 yet none of the S lenses' curves seem to be flatter nor straighter than this 4/3 lens.



The 35mm f/3.5 Olympus lens is made in China, which will cost you only 190 US dollars at B&H.

Give me a break ...

[wildlightphoto]

Originally Posted by sdai

You can also say that the S2 is 456% bigger than the 4/3 yet none of the S lenses' curves seem to be flatter nor straighter than this 4/3 lens.



The 35mm f/3.5 Olympus lens is made in China, which will cost you only 190 US dollars at B&H.

Give me a break ...

Simon, scale the image height axis down to match the S-system MTF curves.