swiss leica fan Posted May 17, 2012 Share #1 Posted May 17, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dear Leica fans Today is a nice weather and I took the advantage to compare an M9 with the new D800E. I used a APO-Telyt 3.4/135 on the M9 and a 2.8/70-200 VRII on the D800E. The shots were made hand-held/stabilized and the zoom had the VR switched on. 1/1000s and 8.0 in manual setting on each camera. ISO setting was on automatic which resulted in ISO 320 with the M9 and ISO 110 with the D800E. In both cases I shot DNG resp RAW and developed in Lightroom 4. Below are the full frames delivered by the two cameras and crops from the middle and the bottom left side. Note that in each case the files were sized to deliver the same frame and appearance in exposure. However, in the case of the M9 with its 18MP sensor the crop factor is higher than with the D800E and its 36MP sensor. The M9 shot was brighter while the D800E exposure was a little darkish which shows that the exposure/ISO automatic works different in both cases. I switched the exposure setting in Lightroom so that the crops are comparable. In case of the mountain peak the M9 exposure setting was minus 1, while in the case of the bottom left crop the D800E setting was plus 1. This comparison has its limitations as I did not use a tripod and the D800E had the advantage of a lower ISO setting which resulted in darkish photos that could be modifed in Lightroom. However, at least this limited example shows that the results are close to each other. Kind regards Andreas Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Above is the full frame of M9 APO Telyt 135mm, 1/1000s, 8.0, ISO 320 Above is the full frame of D800E 2.8 70-200 VRII, 1/1000s, 8.0, ISO 110 (exposure setting plus 1 in Lightroom) Above is the M9 crop of the mountain peak (exposure setting minus 1 in Lightroom) Above is the D800E crop of the mountain peak Above is the M9 lakeshore crop Above is the D800E lakeshore crop (exposure setting plus 1 in Lightroom) Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Above is the full frame of M9 APO Telyt 135mm, 1/1000s, 8.0, ISO 320 Above is the full frame of D800E 2.8 70-200 VRII, 1/1000s, 8.0, ISO 110 (exposure setting plus 1 in Lightroom) Above is the M9 crop of the mountain peak (exposure setting minus 1 in Lightroom) Above is the D800E crop of the mountain peak Above is the M9 lakeshore crop Above is the D800E lakeshore crop (exposure setting plus 1 in Lightroom) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/179713-m9-vs-d800e-comparison/?do=findComment&comment=2015886'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 Hi swiss leica fan, Take a look here M9 vs D800E comparison. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Sailronin Posted May 17, 2012 Share #2 Posted May 17, 2012 They look pretty close. I wonder what the Nikon would have looked like with the Image Stabilization turned off to match the Leica with no stabilization possible? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted May 17, 2012 Share #3 Posted May 17, 2012 sorry, but this comparison has no value different ISO prime vs zoom different stabilisation different exposure (and the exposure does not look correct) optimal Leica raw convertor but not Nikon (NX2 required) sorry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalus Posted May 17, 2012 Share #4 Posted May 17, 2012 Thank you for doing this. I guess my question is, aside from much better low light capabilities with the Nikon, why the M9 sensor gets such a bad rap, and such a low "rating" at the DXO site. I mean, to be honest, I am hard pressed to see the Nikon delivering comparatively better results, but perhaps this is only because we are not looking at huge prints of the photos???? Perhaps, and again a question, I am certain the 135 is a superb lens, "better" than anything Nikon has, so: how much do really superb lenses, esp the latest and greatest (50 APO Summicron) compensate quality wise in photos for relatively "weaker" or smaller sensors, as, in this case, 36 vs 18 megapixels. I would really like some light shed on this question(s). Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted May 17, 2012 Share #5 Posted May 17, 2012 THe Nikon has the ever so slightest of edges. Goes to show you how good the "weak sensor" in the "old" M9 really is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haroldp Posted May 17, 2012 Share #6 Posted May 17, 2012 Thank you for doing this. Perhaps, and again a question, I am certain the 135 is a superb lens, "better" than anything Nikon has, Thanks There are many reasons to question the validity of this test, I also question why anyone cares, but at the test condition of f8 as stated, the Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VRII is as sharp as any lens for any discernable photographic purpose. Are my Leica lenses 'better' than my Nikon Lenses, yes they are, but at maximum aperture which is why I buy fast lenses. Stopped down to an optimum aperture, modern professional grade lenses are almost indistinguishable from a sharpness point of view but may 'render' differently. The reason the new APO Summicron is interesting is its stellar performance at f2. At f4 or 5.6 the comparisons between it and Leica's other current 50's are less interesting, at least on current Leica Sensors. At 1/1000 sec. or faster Image stabilization is either irrelevant or harmful since Nikon's motion sensor / correction cycle is 1/1000 sec. Tripod, VR off, Mirror up is the only valid way to test lens/sensor resolution on Nikon. The poster who commented on Raw workflow is correct, NX2 gives beter results with Nikon raws than ACR both in color and in correction of residual abberations. Regards ... H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted May 17, 2012 Share #7 Posted May 17, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) "At 36mp on the D800, though, diffraction impacts start recording noticeably at f/8 and above." "Of course, the reason to buy a D800 is...well, what is the reason to buy a D800? If you answer "resolution," then I suspect that you need to stay under f/8 " Thom Hogan's Nikon Camera, DSLR, Lens, Flash, and Book site "But diffraction softening is clearly present at f/8 " LensRentals.com - D800 Lens Selection Don't be discouraged, take on board the suggestions and have another go, I for one applaud your bravery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted May 17, 2012 Share #8 Posted May 17, 2012 They look pretty close. I wonder what the Nikon would have looked like with the Image Stabilization turned off to match the Leica with no stabilization possible? At 1/1000 sec exposure it would look better with VR OFF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haroldp Posted May 17, 2012 Share #9 Posted May 17, 2012 Diffraction softening begins at maximum aperture and proceeds from there as it is loss of contrast caused by light 'spill' at the edges of the aperture. It increases stopping down, because the ratio of the linear size of the aperture edges increases relative to the 'open' area of the lens, since circumference is a linear function and area a square function. Sensor resolution has nothing to do with any of this. A 'perfectly corrected' lens will be sharpest wide open, and some are, Nikon long teles for example (400/2.8, 600/4 etc. I would bet that Leica APO Telyt's are as well but I have never used one. As an 'imperfect' lens is stopped down, aberrations decrease, since these usually are more important than diffraction at wide openings, the lens gets sharper until it approaches 'perfect ' from an aberrations viewpoint. The better the lens, the wider this will be. The only impact of sensor resolution on any of this, is that lower resolution (fewer pixels) masks the loss of resolution due to diffraction. A D800 (36 mp) will not suffer worse diffraction loss than a D700 (12 mp), the loss will simply be visible sooner because there is more resolution to compare it to. A D800 will outresolve a D700 at F1.4, at F8, and at F22. The relative advantage may diminish. There is no lens / aperture circumstance where a D700 will outresolve a D800. The diffraction argument is meaningless as a choice factor in the context of sensor resolution unless one is regularly shooting at f22 for DOF and then lower res sensors will still not help. Regards ... H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiss leica fan Posted May 17, 2012 Author Share #10 Posted May 17, 2012 Thank you for all your valuable comments which reached me when coming home from my afternoon trip. You are right when emphasizing the limitations of my comparison. My aim was to make an out of the pocket comparison under real life conditions. A comparison with a tripod and/or under controlled laboratory conditions will provide more valid results. And the Capture software is expected to improve the D800E files. When shooting the tele lenses I had decided to use 1/1000 and 8.0 to avoid camera shake and to be sure that the APO Telyt is in focus (note that Leica recommends stopping down 2 stops with the M9). I think this is a real life setting with tele lenses. During the afternoon I made some further shots with other lenses and I am happy to share the results. Again, I did not use a tripod. Below is a comparison between a M9 with 1.4 50 ASPH and a D800E with AF-S 1.8 50 G. This time both cameras were manually set at 1/500 8.0 ISO 160. The cameras were shooting DNG and RAW and files were processed in Lightroom 4. As you can see from the full frames the D800E photograph is more bright. To better compare the crops I changed the exposure in Lightroom to minus 0.5 for the D800E As can be seen the D800E shot appears to be more sharp so that I wonder whether the blur is a result of the stronger crop and enlargement factor or whether there is a focus issue with the Leica. Camera shake may also be an explanation though I think with 1/500 one should be on the safe side with a 50mm and with 8.0 aperture and infinite distance setting there should be no focus issue. Or is it simply that the 200 USD AF-S 1.8 50 is so good at 8.0? Any suggestions? And of course, next time when I am on a tour I'll bring my tripod and will compare the lenses wide open. This is for what the Summilux was designed. Regards Andreas Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Above is the M9 with 1.4 50 ASPH (1/500, 8.0, ISO 160) Above is the D800 E with AF-S 1.8 50 G (1/500, 8.0, ISO 160) Above is the M9 with 1.4 50 ASPH (crop; 1/500, 8.0, ISO 160) Above is the D800E with AF-S 1.8 50 G (crop; 1/500, 8.0, ISO 160; Exposure setting is minus 0.5 in Lightroom 4) Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Above is the M9 with 1.4 50 ASPH (1/500, 8.0, ISO 160) Above is the D800 E with AF-S 1.8 50 G (1/500, 8.0, ISO 160) Above is the M9 with 1.4 50 ASPH (crop; 1/500, 8.0, ISO 160) Above is the D800E with AF-S 1.8 50 G (crop; 1/500, 8.0, ISO 160; Exposure setting is minus 0.5 in Lightroom 4) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/179713-m9-vs-d800e-comparison/?do=findComment&comment=2016434'>More sharing options...
Peter H Posted May 17, 2012 Share #11 Posted May 17, 2012 Looks like the M9 definitely has the edge when it comes to boats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sp12 Posted May 17, 2012 Share #12 Posted May 17, 2012 Look at the quantity of Moire with the M9 image on the rocks on the pier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted May 18, 2012 Share #13 Posted May 18, 2012 I don't think I'm surprised that a 36MP sensor out resolves an 18MP sensor given glass which out resolves both. The tree on front LHS edge shows this well. I have no doubt the Leica glass would resolve more, and probably will on the M10 Many thanks for this. I know it is difficult to satisfy the perfect lab conditions and real life shooters at the same time. This begs the question that given the quality of glass and the quality of sensors, for which we pay, will we ever see it in real life shooting. (and yes I know some will sit on a tripod etc and get it I mean my real life ) ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiss leica fan Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share #14 Posted May 18, 2012 Here are some higher enlargements of the same files of the M9/APO Telyt 135 vs D800E/2.8 70-200 VRII comparison. Note that the ISO setting of the M9 was 320 while the D800E was ISO 110. Of course I need a tripod and equal ISO setting next time as the higher ISO delivers more noise on the M9. However, it shows that the higher number of pixels does not provide a dramatic difference in resolution. As always: the usual limitations apply and further research is needed... Regards Andreas Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Above is the M9 & APO Telyt 135 (1/1000, 8.0, ISO 320, DNG, Lightroom 4) Above is the D800E & 2.8 70-200 VRII (1/1000, 8.0, ISO 110, VR on, RAW, exposure +1 in Lightroom 4) Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Above is the M9 & APO Telyt 135 (1/1000, 8.0, ISO 320, DNG, Lightroom 4) Above is the D800E & 2.8 70-200 VRII (1/1000, 8.0, ISO 110, VR on, RAW, exposure +1 in Lightroom 4) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/179713-m9-vs-d800e-comparison/?do=findComment&comment=2016580'>More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted May 18, 2012 Share #15 Posted May 18, 2012 However, it shows that the higher number of pixels does not provide a dramatic difference in resolution.) Not until you stop shooting at f8 it doesn't At f8 the diffraction introduced by the lens is limiting the resolution you can see of the sensor. H above gives a better, longer reasoning. You illustrate perfectly the problems of actually producing in real life the resolution the sensor is capable of. That is why Nikon issued that technical note explaining why on zooming in the image may not appear "sharp" you must optimise all factors that affect that, including not shooting at an fstop where the lens shows diffraction the sensor can "see". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiss leica fan Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share #16 Posted May 18, 2012 Thanks for the comments and recommendations. I will run a new test drive with wide open apertures, tripod etc. Unfortunately, we have a rainy day... I will see how far the limits can be pushed both on the Leica and the Nikon side and whether one side or the other can make a difference in an academic exercise. Up until now my point simply was that I am quite impressed how good these shots (and how small the differences) are under real life conditions (note these are huge enlargements). Finally, I am not a pixel peeper but a real life shooter. Regards Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted May 18, 2012 Share #17 Posted May 18, 2012 Two stops down is probably best for the Nikon. Look at the links I gave earlier. The Lens Rentals shows lens resolution for the Nikkor you have on the 800, the E should be better ie show higher resolution as they found with the Zeiss lens they tested. Also read the Hogan link where he explains D800 lens choices and where you are limited on slow zoom glass to shoot below f8 for diffraction and above full open for performance so for a slow f4 zoom you are limited to f5.6 in effect !! Much use of A mode I suppose. Sorry about the rain we too are suffering and I loaded 100asa in the M2 yesterday Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted May 18, 2012 Share #18 Posted May 18, 2012 "At 36mp on the D800, though, diffraction impacts start recording noticeably at f/8 and above.""Of course, the reason to buy a D800 is...well, what is the reason to buy a D800? If you answer "resolution," then I suspect that you need to stay under f/8 " Thom Hogan's Nikon Camera, DSLR, Lens, Flash, and Book site "But diffraction softening is clearly present at f/8 " LensRentals.com - D800 Lens Selection Don't be discouraged, take on board the suggestions and have another go, I for one applaud your bravery. The diffraction issues have been shown by Bjorn Rorslett (Nikongear) to be mostly lens related and the generalizations mentioned above are merely that - generalizations. Most of these apply to zoom lenses. Some of the better optics (all primes) have been demonstrated to be usable at f32! Also, where the Sony sensor shows its chops is in the shadow details. In the crops where the Leica shadows are murky, there is still detail in the Nikon. Pixel peeping aside, they are both very good and I feel a photographer with either of these units should be a happy camper . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 18, 2012 Share #19 Posted May 18, 2012 There is no chance that any zoom lens is as sharp as the Leica 135/3.4 folks. The comparo with 50mm lenses is more fair and shows the expected superiority of the Nikon IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted May 18, 2012 Share #20 Posted May 18, 2012 The diffraction issues have been shown by Bjorn Rorslett (Nikongear) to be mostly lens related and the generalizations mentioned above are merely that - generalizations. . Absolutely agree but without specific test results for individual lenses and there are a lot out there for both these mounts a generalisation is not a bad starting point. Not only are some sharp at f32 some have the best mtf wide open (and that was a Zeiss) so the f8 is a starting point for personal investigation. I would not regard it as dogma. I think the point is that we should be careful what we wish for. A 36MP sensor requires very good glass and technique to realise its potential. Less glass and less technique will not ruin the shot but "waste" the resolution you have wished, and paid for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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