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M9 viewfinder-lens not accurate


wiltifft

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My M9 viewfinder with the 35mm f1.4 Summilux does not give me an accurate representation of the image I capture. When I compose in the viewfinder using the bright-lines the resulting image I get is much larger than what is indicated by about 25% and is not at all what is indicated in the viewfinders "bright-line" frame.

 

I have been using Leica M's for over 40 years now and have never seen anything like this.

 

Hope someone can help.

 

Wil Tifft

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You have seen it - just not realized it, as film has a timelag and loses at least 1 mm along the edges in enlarging. Search the many threads on frameline accuracy. In general the accuracy of the M9 is similar (not quite the same) to the 0.72 viewfinders on the newer film Ms. It is an inevitable result of the focal length shift when focussing from close to infinity.

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Are you sure you are looking at the right framelines? The viewfinder magnification cannot vary from camera to camera, and the frameline layout is not variable either. The only thing that I can imagine could have happened is that somehow M8 frameline matrixes got built into your camera, but that seems to be quite unlikely. Can you compare to another M9 somehow?

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Which Leica M models have you used these 40 years?

 

Is the M9 your first digital M?

 

What has been your working method with M's in the past? Color prints from labs? Slides? Making your own prints (with or without black borders)?

 

How are you viewing your M9 shots - finished lab prints, or the actual images on a computer?

 

I ask because all these factors may affect what you are seeing from the M9 - compared to what you were used to from film Ms.

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I just compared the framing for the bright lines on both my M6 and M9 and they are the same. However, as I mentioned before the M9 is recording nearly everything I can see outside the bright line nearly to the edge of the entire viewing area. The image recorded is that of a 28mm lense but showing the 35mm bright line.

 

Wil

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I can only repeat, are you sure - the 28 mm framelines are not that easy to see on an M9, for many users they fall just outside the easily visible viewfinder area. The next lines in are the 35 mm ones. On my M9 the framelines for the 35 mm lens are about as accurate as one can expect of an optical viewfinder. As Andy said, it could well be a perceptional thing - it might be a good idea to compare a negative with the print you got from your lab - you will be amazed at the amount that was cut off.

Edited by jaapv
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Adan,

 

I have used Leica M's from the M2, M4, M4p and the M6. I have processed and printed my film in my darkroom. I have shot B&W, Color Neg. and Transparency also. It has been a totally hands-on process and this is my first digital M camera.

 

Wil

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Just to emphasize, since I have always processed and printed my own images I am fully aware of what is and is not included. This is the FIRST M camera in which the bright line is nowhere near accurate. Not even close enough to give the benefit of the doubt. Again, I am getting an image from the camera which is out to the 28mm bright line. Believe me, I have checked and rechecked and that is what I am getting with my 35mm f1.4.

 

Wil Tifft

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No, the 35mm summalux f1.4 does not bring up the 28mm brightline. I checked that by manipulating the "finder lever". I have, I believe found out what is going on. I put my 35mm Summacron f2 on the M9 and the correct bright line came up and the image rendered is perfect. No problem whatsoever...exact and precise as it should be.

 

When I put the f1.4 on it brings up a brightline not related to the lense itself. I am just as happy because feel that the f2 is a better lens than the f1.4.

 

Wil Tifft

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Right, thanks. And I don't doubt that you are getting more than you framed for.

 

[Edit in response to post #11 - so which frameline IS your 35 f/1.4 bringing up? 50mm? It could be - I tried a 75 f/1.4 the other week that brough up 90/28 framelines by mistake]

 

As you likely know, Leica has always included SOME leeway between the framelines and the actual total image captured. Up to 15% with the longer telephoto lenses (the 90mm lines on an M4 actually frame like a "105mm" at anything over 3 meters - I tested this myself with my M4 vs. a 100%-viewfinder Nikon F + 105.)

 

For multiple reasons: The key one being it is assumed people would rather crop an image slightly after the fact than find out they had cut something off irretrievably. Others being - the cropping forced by slide mounts and negative carriers - the fact that a lens focused close is farther from the image plane and thus takes in a smaller area (just as pulling a slide projector away from the screen may make the picture run off the edges) - and the simple fact that the viewfinder sees the world 2 inches higher and to the left than the lens does.

 

The amount of leeway has varied some over the years - if you still have them and can compare, the 35 and 50 lines in a pre-28mm-line finder (M2, M4) are slightly bigger and thus more accurate than those in the M4-P/M6. Squeezing in the 28 lines caused a reduction in size for the others (presumably to maintain a certain thickness of metal between the 35 and 28 lines in the "stencil" that produces them so it would not fall apart)

 

Leica has experimented with the framing in their digital Ms: in the M8, the lines were set to frame precisely at each lens's minimum focus distance (which made for very loose pictures at long distances); they changed that to a standard "correct for subjects at 2 meters with any lens" with the M8.2 (or upgraded lines) - which was still a bit loose at long distances and ran the risk of unintentional cropping at .7 meters; in the M9 they have compromised on "correct for subjects at 1 meter with any lens".

 

One other factor, in your case specifically. The 35 f/1.4 ASPH has some barrel distortion, like a mild fisheye. So it likely includes a tad more subject area at the edges than, say, a 1982 35mm Summicron, just as a 16mm fisheye takes in more than a 16mm rectilinear wide-angle. And may, in fact, be behaving more like a "32mm" lens than does a 35mm with less distortion.

 

The 35 lines, however, need to be conservatively "safe" with all 35 lenses. My 'cron captures about 5% more than the lines indicate (on each side, so 10% total) at 2.5 meters (8 feet). At 0.7 meters the lines are pretty much an exact match for the captured image - so I would not want them to be much wider for close-in work, or I'd be losing things I though were included.

 

Finally, there is the "digital perception" thing. Which is why I asked if you'd printed really full-frame (with a black border) using film. With a digital image, there is no cropping from the slide mount or a negative carrier or the minilab's machine - one always sees the full image, right to the edges. And one can see it while still standing in front of the subject, not hours or days later when the film is processed, where one is depending on memory of what the framelines included at the moment of exposure.

Edited by adan
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When I put the f1.4 on it brings up a brightline not related to the lense itself. I am just as happy because feel that the f2 is a better lens than the f1.4.

 

Wil Tifft

 

Are you sure you are not holding the lens release button down when changing lenses and then over rotating the lens in the mount? Some lenses will go over centre and bring up the wrong framelines, and the solution is to just let the lens click into place and keep your finger off the release button.

 

Steve

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When I put the f1.4 on it brings up a brightline not related to the lense itself.

 

Wil Tifft

 

In that case, you have answered your own question and both lens and body should be returned to Solms for adjustment of one or both.

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Notwithstanding the other advice offered in the thread, your camera's instructions explain that, for the 28mm, the size of the bright-line frame corresponds exactly to the sensor size of approx. 23.9 x 35.8mm at a setting distance of 1 meter. At infinity setting the error is approximately 7.3%

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On the MP I could cut things off drastically on the edges knowing it's never going to be as extreme as seen in the viewfinder. There was always more ( quite a bit more ) on the film than the bright lines indicated.

Now with the M9, even though I know the cutout on the sensor is wider than the 35mm frame lines show, each time I am unpleasantly surprised by the huge difference, far more than on the MP. Near, at infinity and everywhere in between in my perception. For reportage stuff I couldn't care less. But for still life and other strongly composition dependent photography I find the viewfinders narrower view having to much of a difference with the actual picture to really depend on.

Chimping becomes a life saver here, even the controversial concept of live view on an M comes to my mind.

Happy to be able to use my M lenses in the digital domain but not ultimately satisfied yet. Enough for the moment though.

But with the almost mid format like resolution and rendering a more accurate framing would be nice for certain applications.

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FRC as I'm sure that you are aware the displayed frame-lines are never 100% accurate by their nature. You would know too that very few dSLRs for example show 100% of the image either.

 

In the case of your MP, the indicated area is 23x35mm at the shortest focus distances (approximately a mounted transparency) and so is actually a little smaller than the M9 usable sensor area (23.9 x 35.8mm) area and smaller than the nominal dimensions for your 35mm film. . Actual exposed film area will vary dependant on lens angle and film gate too so that it all becomes quite variable and can be subjective.

 

Out to infinity the MP's frame-line area error is approximately 9% (28mm) to 23% (135mm).

So if your lenses are bringing up the correct frame-lies and allowing for varying eye positions you really shouldn't see much difference with the same lenses on your M9. Depending on which magnification finder you have too, practical accuracy can be affected.

The finder mechanisms of MP and M9 are in fact essentially identical except for variations in magnification. Same masks.

 

As you've noted, you can use the LCD preview for an extremely accurate framing in critical situations (as with other camera types too, of course). Perfect for still lifes and other critical framing as you said.

 

Liveview systems are a different and contentious topic as you've mentioned, but accuracy there would depend on what exact system was in use too (Some use separate sensors for view and capture for example).

Edited by hoppyman
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Now with the M9, even though I know the cutout on the sensor is wider than the 35mm frame lines show, each time I am unpleasantly surprised by the huge difference, far more than on the MP.

 

Thats my experience as well with the 35mm framelines. There is a huge difference at the sort of distances I mostly work at with my Summicron. If you don't learn to guess how much extra is available on the sensor you would start to very rapidly deplete the number of pixels by always cropping back down to your original composition. The problem comes when the guessing isn't even near say an outer edge of the frameline, but way out in a no mans land with no other reference points. Its not ideal for anything fast moving where chimping isn't an option. I have a 40mm CV that is a very close fit for the 35mm lines in the M9.

 

Steve

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If I compare the framelines from my Wetzlar build M6 and the new M9, they are exact the same regarding the image that is shown within the framelines, both for the 35mm frameline and the 90mm frameline.

I took some images with both, and they are the same. Taking a picture at 1m distance the framelines (35mm and 90mm) are exact for an image size of 23x34.5mm (on the M6 and the M9). Taking pictures at the infinity mark creates a much wider field, but that is normal. Both create in that case the same field of view.

In the case of the 90mm you could almost use the 75mm framelines for composing. But as I said that is also the case with pictures I took with the M6. The reason that I never have noticed that has to do with the time between taking the picture and seeing the result. In the case of the M6 that is days to weeks. In the case of the M9 that is within seconds, so you know exact how the composed picture should look.

 

Regards

Meino de Graaf

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