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1963 Summicron 50/2 DR Won't Mount on M8


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Well my spankin' new M8 arrived two days ago and the very first lens I try to mount on it -- my 1963 DR Summicron 50/2 won't mount!

 

My new Voigtlander lenses mount just fine thanks, but of course I want to use the Leitz lens.

 

When set at infinity it won't mount at all, when set all the way close it mounts very begrudgingly but then the focus ring is super stiff and it just feels all wrong.

 

Ideas??

 

I thought the whole deal was that the M8 would use virtually all the M mount lenses. Did I happen on the one that doesn't work?

 

BTW this 'Cron works a charm on my Epson R-D1.

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Take a look at the manual: the 50/2DR is one of the "forbidden" lenses on the M8. Its rf-coupling cam protrudes too deeply into the cameras lensmount and risk to damage its guts.

Try to swap your DR for a same age "rigid" Summicron 50, as the optical formulations are the same, less the near fousing range.

 

Best,

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Joe,

 

Contrary to popular belief, the DR and non-DR Summicrons of the same vintage are optically identical. The reason for the DR's reputation as being "better' is mainly its complex and heavy focusing mount construction. Some sources also say that only 'crons with better correction for closer distances were put into the DR mounts.

 

If you sell your DR and replace it with a non-DR 'cron, you might come out ahead financially......... And it will fit the M8!

 

All the best,

 

Jan

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I thought the whole deal was that the M8 would use virtually all the M mount lenses. Did I happen on the one that doesn't work?

 

1.

 

 

You guessed correctly. The newer Summicron 50s focus to 0.7m. The M3 RF operates to 1m without an accessory. So older lenses such as the old rigid and collapsible 50s focus to 1m.

Tom

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Don't want to appear 'nit-picky but the 50mm Crons of the 50's and early 60's, while they're the same optically when comparing the rigid and DR versions, are not necessarily the same regarding exact focal length.

 

All the DRs are 51.9mm in true focal length. This was the result of elements being 'matched' to yield the same focal length in the DR.

 

The rigid version will vary in true focal length from lens to lens. The DRs were also matched during manufacturing. Note that the serial number of the lens, is also stamped on the lens mount itself (on the inside).

 

If the wolf ever comes to my door, the 50 DR would be the last lens I'd let go of.

 

Jerry

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Joe--I'm just seconding the last couple posts.

 

You're right that the DR is a great lens with a great reputation.

 

Jan is correct that the standard 50/2 and the DR came off the same line. The design intent for all was 51.9mm, so any lens that deviated from that went to one of the standard Summicron mounts.

 

But both Jerry and Tom are also correct in regard to the reasons for the replacement of the DR:

 

From M2 forward, cameras would focus closer than M3 without needing the extra mechanics of the DR mount.

 

The DR was expensive to produce because of the complexity of the mount, including the need for engraving the serial number on both the lens head and the mount. And of the 51.9mm lens heads that were produced, the better ones are said to have gone first to the DR, then to the standard Summicrons: In other words, time and material added up.

 

The later Summicrons all focus closer than the DR (or at least as close as, not sure which), when used on bodies later than the M3.

 

And the later lenses are of later optical designs which by modern standards are better. "Better" is, of course, in the eye of the beholder, and you may prefer their rendering or not.

 

If your DR is in good shape, it is a collectable as Jerry said. And since a 50 behaves as a 67 on the M8, you might consider getting a wider lens to serve in its place.

 

--HC

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Thanks for all the replies.

 

The 50 DR 'Cron is so good on my Epson R-D1 that I think I'll keep it just for that body (always good to have a back up).

 

I have a few Cosina-Voigtalnder lenses that I got for the R-D1 and they seem to work very well but are even better on the M8 (28/1.9 Ultron, 40/1.4 Nokton and 15/4.5 Super-Heliar) so I'll use those for a while and see what it feels like I'm missing.

 

Really appreciate all the replies! It makes for a nice welcome for an old boy like me!:)

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I am curious now: if I manage to find a 50 DR Summicron which will mount on my M8 (I have seen others claim that theirs work), which part of the range can I use, the close or the far or both? I presume I must never collapse the lens while mounted?

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I am curious now: if I manage to find a 50 DR Summicron which will mount on my M8 (I have seen others claim that theirs work), which part of the range can I use, the close or the far or both? I presume I must never collapse the lens while mounted?

Carsten, You would be able to use the DR in close range only with the M8. Only if the focusing cam is modified, can you use the 3'-4" - infinity range.

Cheers, David.

PS- search DR Summicron for some discussion re M8 and DR.

 

edit: one more thing. None of the DR lenses will work on the M8 without modification.

Cheers!

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I am curious now: if I manage to find a 50 DR Summicron which will mount on my M8 (I have seen others claim that theirs work), which part of the range can I use, the close or the far or both? I presume I must never collapse the lens while mounted?

 

Carsten,

 

The only way to mount the DR 'cron on the M8 is when the lens is set to its close focusing range. It cannot be mounted when set to the regular 1m - Infinity range, as the close focusing cam extends into the body too deeply and interferes with the innards of the M8. I would definitely not recommend using the DR on the M8, there are simply too many caveats in terms of how to mount it, which range to use it in etc. As to your note about collapsing - the DR is not a collapsible lens.

 

I have heard of people machining the close focus cam off and using the lens only in the standard distance range....... This to me is barbarism; I'd rather keep the lens in its original state and buy a non-DR 'cron of the same vintage if I wanted to keep the same optical signature.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jan

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Thanks for the answers. I recall now that the DR Summicron is a rigid lens. I was mixing it up with the 50 Elmarit.

 

I have heard great things about the DR Summicron, but not about the regular Summicron of the same vintage. Given that they are meant to be the same optical formula, other than the 51.9mm matching of the DR lens, why might this be?

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I have heard great things about the DR Summicron, but not about the regular Summicron of the same vintage. Given that they are meant to be the same optical formula, other than the 51.9mm matching of the DR lens, why might this be?

 

Hi Carsten,

 

I mentioned this in my post no.4 -..."The reason for the DR's reputation as being "better' is mainly its complex and heavy focusing mount construction.".....

 

The DR Summicron feels very heavy and solid in use and that is why it has a reputation as a "better' lens. It is not any better optically than its non-DR equivalent of the same vintage.

 

All the best,

 

Jan

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...This to me is barbarism...

Jan

 

LOL

I just wanted to see what it looked like on the M8...the lens can always be returned to stock with a (readily available) new cam... geez...barbarism?...:eek:

I hardly ever used the close range anyway:rolleyes:

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  • 4 weeks later...

That first M8 had 2 issues that made me send it back. 1) wow was the sensor ever filthy -- and, no, blowing it off didn't help (like 30-40 spots) -- and 2) it backfocused.

 

So a replacement has arrived (yay!) and while there's a dozen dust things on the sensor, the focusing seems spot-on so far!

 

Since the 1963 DR 50 cron works so well on my R-D1, I guess I'll keep that combo for back up purposes! Now that i have a functioning M8, I can send the R-D1 off to DAG to resolve ITS issues! Who ever knew digital RF photography would be such fun! (meaning I hardly look at all that lovely Nikon gear in the closet).

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Just want to add a bite of "folklore" to this thread.

A very well respected Japanese Leica expert once told me that the best rigid Summicron 50/2's all had a focal length of 51.9. This figure is engraved on the removable lense unit by hand, i.e. scratched into the side of the barrel. In adddition, a "N" is also scratched in - i.e." 51.9 N", which is supposed to be "neutral colour rendition", according to my Japanese friend. The serial number also appears on the mechanical mount, i.e. the lens itself is matched to the mount. A very desirable version for collectors seems to be a DR with a serial number over 2.3 million (originally made for the M2R).

He wrote a very detailed book on Leica products and had an extensive collection of cameras/lenses, so I trust his judgement.

I have several 50/2 Summicrons with "51.9 N" markings (M mount, screw mount and DR) and they perform equally well. It is one of my favourite lenses for the old Leica fingerprint.

Teddy

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  • 2 months later...
can one place a DR lens barrel into the non-DR ie rigid mount, to use on the M8 ?

 

thanks, Steve

 

I suppose yes PROVIDED that the lens barrel and the lens mount are for THE SAME effective focal length (51.2 51.6 52.2 ...) : both the components should be engraved with it... but I'm not so sure of... a complex question that intrigues collectors... surely, with all the backfocusing issues that affect some lenses on M8 it would be, simply said, a "try and test" affair: maybe it works... but I agree with people that states that DR and non-DR Crons are not different in optical rendering.

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I machined the flange off my DR, for use on my Zeiss Ikon which has the same mounting restriction. This was a 'user' lens in poor cosmetic shape, engraved, no eyes, though with clean glass. The price was considerably less than any rigid Summicron I could find.

 

Removed the optics, masked everything carefully, mounted up on the mill and zapped off the close-focus cam flange. Works great, but one less DR in the world. Trust me, collectors wanted nothing to do with this lens.

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