tundraline Posted July 20, 2014 Share #1 Posted July 20, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yesterday I received my "new" 180mm Lecia R APO Telyt lens, and took a few shots with it. I was advised by Ken Hansen that when shooting with this lens on an M240 using an R adapter that live view must be turned off before the shutter is actuated to ensure optimum results. Otherwise, apparently, the resulting photos are not as sharp as they should be. Ken Hansen did not go into the reasons for why live view must be turned off before the shutter is actuated on an M240; apparently they are quite complicated. Ken Hansen also told me that if an APO extender is to be used with this lens, then a 2X extender should be used, and then only a non-ROM version of a 2X extender. Apparently a ROM APO 2X extender will not work with this lens in combination with an R adapter. Ken Hansen worked with a Leica representative recently to figure these things out. I thought it might be helpful to pass along this information. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/230826-live-view-and-leica-r-180mm-apo-telyt-f34/?do=findComment&comment=2634106'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 Hi tundraline, Take a look here Live View and Leica R 180mm APO Telyt f/3.4. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Peter H Posted July 20, 2014 Share #2 Posted July 20, 2014 A very nice lens. As it's optimised for infinity-focus, for the very best possible results it doesn't need focussing at all because the most important thing is simply ensuring your subject is sufficiently distant. If it's not, you won't be getting optimum performance anyway. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 20, 2014 Share #3 Posted July 20, 2014 I also used my APO Telyt-R 3.4 yesterday on the M (with a third-party adapter). This is one of my favorite lenses. I still need to review the shots and will follow up later. At the moment, I can only say - again - that focus peaking on the M is awfully implemented. More info about the shutter vibration issue here: diglloyd: Leica M240: Shutter Vibration Appears to Damage Image Sharpness 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share #4 Posted July 20, 2014 A very nice lens. As it's optimised for infinity-focus, for the very best possible results it doesn't need focussing at all because the most important thing is simply ensuring your subject is sufficiently distant. If it's not, you won't be getting optimum performance anyway. My plan for using this lens is to have it set at infinity 99% of the time. Live view focusing with the M240 and this lens is a bit too fiddly of an affair for my taste. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted July 20, 2014 Share #5 Posted July 20, 2014 I think I'm being a bit slow here, but why must live view be turned off before shutter actuation with this lens? I can't imagine a mechanism which would make this necessary. Please could you amplify this for me? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share #6 Posted July 20, 2014 I think I'm being a bit slow here, but why must live view be turned off before shutter actuation with this lens? I can't imagine a mechanism which would make this necessary. Please could you amplify this for me? Hi John: The reason why live view should be turned off before taking a photo is unknown to me. Sorry I can't provide an explanation. Best regards, Tom 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieberman Posted July 20, 2014 Share #7 Posted July 20, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi John: The reason why live view should be turned off before taking a photo is unknown to me. Sorry I can't provide an explanation. Best regards, Tom Explanation. First: lifeview only works with an open shutter. Second: Upon releasing, the shutter must first close down thus automatically turning off the lifeview. Then it opens and closes according to the exposure time you have set. The problem is as follows: if the first closing of the shutter causes a vibratoon this might influence the following exposure. But if you turn off lifeview manually and expose afterwards the vibration has maybe ended before the exposure. Arla 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share #8 Posted July 20, 2014 Explanation. First: lifeview only works with an open shutter. Second: Upon releasing, the shutter must first close down thus automatically turning off the lifeview. Then it opens and closes according to the exposure time you have set. The problem is as follows: if the first closing of the shutter causes a vibratoon this might influence the following exposure. But if you turn off lifeview manually and expose afterwards the vibration has maybe ended before the exposure.Arla Sounds like a perfectly good explanation to me, Arla. Thanks! Best regards, Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 20, 2014 Share #9 Posted July 20, 2014 The only reason I can think of that Ken would say to turn off live view before taking the shot would be to minimize any vibration from the closing of the shutter just prior to it's reopening fo the exposure. Sort of like why mirror lockup or prerelease is recommended with an SLR. I suppose technically one can't argue with the logic, assuming the camera is being used on a tripod and for a still-life shot or a landscape. Myself I wouldn't bother unless the shutter speed was below 125 (on a tripod). The 1.4x APO extender won't fit because the front of it protrudes. It will fit the 180/2.8 because there's enough room between the flange and the back of the rear element. Idk about the 2x APO, but if it would fit, it's a better optical quality than the older non-APO. Frankly I think you might get just as good quality cropping the image than using the older 2x. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted July 20, 2014 Share #10 Posted July 20, 2014 Sounds like a perfectly good explanation to me, Arla. Thanks! Best regards, Tom But surely this explanation would not be unique to the 180/3.4? Surely it would apply equally to all long lenses? (The explanation equivalent to that for using mirror lock-up on an SLR had occurred to me, but what puzzled me was why the impression was given that this was related to the 180/3.4 in particular.) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share #11 Posted July 20, 2014 But surely this explanation would not be unique to the 180/3.4? Surely it would apply equally to all long lenses? (The explanation equivalent to that for using mirror lock-up on an SLR had occurred to me, but what puzzled me was why the impression was given that this was related to the 180/3.4 in particular.) Yes -- I would think so, John. Good point. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted July 20, 2014 Share #12 Posted July 20, 2014 I do believe I must change my image making workflow with long lenses due to the possibility of vibration. That said I seem to have gotten some fairly sharp images with my APO 180 +2x converter including sometimes extreme crops. See example below. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 9 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/230826-live-view-and-leica-r-180mm-apo-telyt-f34/?do=findComment&comment=2634259'>More sharing options...
tundraline Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share #13 Posted July 20, 2014 I do believe I must change my image making workflow with long lenses due to the possibility of vibration. That said I seem to have gotten some fairly sharp images with my APO 180 +2x converter including sometimes extreme crops. See example below. [ATTACH]447959[/ATTACH] Great photo. I think the APO 180 is a mighty fine lens. Can't wait to try it out with a 2X APO converter (which is on the way). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 21, 2014 Share #14 Posted July 21, 2014 But surely this explanation would not be unique to the 180/3.4? Surely it would apply equally to all long lenses? Your answer is in the linked article I have cited in my previous post. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 21, 2014 Share #15 Posted July 21, 2014 I do believe I must change my image making workflow with long lenses due to the possibility of vibration. That said I seem to have gotten some fairly sharp images with my APO 180 +2x converter including sometimes extreme crops. See example below. [ATTACH]447959[/ATTACH] That is a great picture, but the information is incomplete if you don't tell us the actual picture resolution. In other words: almost everything is fairly sharp at web resolution Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 21, 2014 Share #16 Posted July 21, 2014 Hmmm. Yes. Digiloyd has a habit of reinventing the wheel. See any older photography book. Not only should one support/stabilize a long lens, but if the tripod is in the fulcrum point of the system, like with a lens tripod bush (or in this case the adapter), one should suspend something from the front of the lens, like a modest camera bag. The optimum solution, and this comes from using long lenses for longer than Digiloyd can say the word "lens" is to use a beanbag, as that will dampen any vibration more effectively than is rigid connection. It is also a bit naïve to think a rangefinder is exempt from vibration. A mirror rotates on its axis (no vibration there) and only imparts energy to the camera body by the stopping action at the end. That is simple to damp on a well designed camera. Just a matter of applying enough foam, simply put. A shutter, and particularly a Titanium vertical one, will be much more difficult to tame. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted July 21, 2014 Share #17 Posted July 21, 2014 Your answer is in the linked article I have cited in my previous post. Thank you - that is very interesting. It would indeed seem that the best workaround would be a firmware update which allowed you to shut the shutter in live view at the start of a timer-delay exposure. This is of course exactly the arrangement on the R8/9 when mirror lock-up is selected in conjunction with a timer delay (the mirror locks up at the start of the countdown, and then the shutter fires at the end). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 21, 2014 Share #18 Posted July 21, 2014 Sorry. Am I missing something? Isn't that what the LV button is for? In classic metering the camera will not reopen the shutter. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 21, 2014 Share #19 Posted July 21, 2014 I think I'm being a bit slow here, but why must live view be turned off before shutter actuation with this lens? I can't imagine a mechanism which would make this necessary. Please could you amplify this for me? This is because the M does not have EFC (Electronic First Curtain), therefore the exposure needs to be taken using the mechanical first and second curtains, and this means that the sensor must be covered before starting the exposure. More advanced cameras have EFC to avoid this. The first curtain is simulated electronically, so there is no need to cover the sensor before starting the exposure. On the M, the problem could be mitigated when using the shutter self-timer mode with Classic metering: - Close the shutter before the timer is started. - Vibrations now have time to dissipate. - As soon as the timer fires, open the shutter and take the exposure. This requires just a couple of extra code lines in the firmware. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 21, 2014 Share #20 Posted July 21, 2014 Sorry. Am I missing something? Isn't that what the LV button is for? In classic metering the camera will not reopen the shutter. You are missing the fact that there is a nicely accessible timer mode, and if a timer mode is there, then it must be properly implemented Digiloyd has a habit of reinventing the wheel. Lloyd may be "reinventing the wheel" but it often seems that camera manufacturers still need to understand what a wheel really is Bashing Lloyd won't help us having better cameras. The optimum solution, and this comes from using long lenses for longer than Digiloyd can say the word "lens" is to use a beanbag, as that will dampen any vibration more effectively than is rigid connection. If I had to add a beanbag to my M kit, I would rather carry my stabilized Canon gear Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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