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Old 04/06/10, 03:01   #1 (permalink)
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Default WATE Questions

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First- yes, I have searched the threads, and have not found my answer . I bought A WATE and Frankenfinder, and have two questions, for I bought it used without a manual and cannot find the download online.

First, the rangefinder couples down to .7 meters, as indicated in white on the focus scale, and with a "hitch" in the focus movement at this point. From here closer there is a gray focus scale to 0.3 meters (I am aware uncoupled- why it is gray), but the focus ring only turns to 0.5 meters. leaving 0.45, 0.4, 0.35 and 0.3 not accessible? Thought maybe it was only accessible in one of the zoom setting or aperture, but no luck. I am now throughly baffled.

Second, is there a diopter correction peice available for the Frankenfinder. I use a -1.0 on the camera and avoid using glasses, and with my Nikon 21mm viewfinder it is not to bad, but the Frankenfinder is unusable without my glasses. Any help in an adapter (number, place to look, etc.) would be most appreciated. I have these visions of buying correction diopter after correction diopter as I loose the pesky things. I tend to keep track of them better when they are on the camera.

Thanks in advance for any advice. BTW, I took the lens out for a quick spin, and am throughly amazed- compared to the size and weight of my Nikon 14-24, it is truly amazing. Don't get 2.8, but a third the weight, and considerably less in volume, I am impressed (if only the Frankenfinder were not so large ).
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Old 04/06/10, 03:43   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

#1 - You have everything right in your understanding of the WATE. The reason the grey distance numbers are there is so you can see what the hyperfocal distances are with different f-stops when you look down at the lens barrel.

#2 - I don't know of any adapters for your diopter. Maybe someone here knows.


By the way, I have this lens and believe it is exceptional.
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Old 04/06/10, 07:16   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

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Originally Posted by tdtaylor View Post
... but the focus ring only turns to 0.5 meters, leaving 0.45, 0.4, 0.35 and 0.3 not accessible? Thought maybe it was only accessible in one of the zoom setting or aperture, but no luck. I am now throughly baffled.
The minimum focus distance is 0.5 m at all settings. The range from there down to 0.3 m is there for reference with the DOF scale only so you can see where DOF starts even when focusing close.


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The reason the grey distance numbers are there is so you can see what the hyperfocal distances are with different f-stops when you look down at the lens barrel.
This has nothing to do with hyperfocal distances.


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Originally Posted by tdtaylor View Post
Is there a diopter correction piece available for the Frankenfinder. I use a -1.0 dpt [...]. Any help in an adapter (number, place to look, etc.) would be most appreciated.
See Leica article number 14383. The diopter correction lenses for the Frankenfinder's eyepiece are different (larger) from those for the camera's eyepiece.
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Old 04/06/10, 07:26   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

It's pretty strange that some people have begun to use he term 'hyperfocal' as a synonym for 'depth of field'. And it is depth of field that is meant here.

'Depth of field' is the general, more extensive term. It is the distance in both directions from the plane of best focus, within which the circle of confusion, as a definition of 'general unsharpness', does not exceed a certain maximum diameter. In other words, there is a close limit on the camera side of the plane of focus, and a far limit on the other side. These limits are engraved on the lens barrel, computed for the hopelessly obsolete and inadequate circle of confusion of 1/30th of a mm (0.0333 ... mm).

'Hyperfocal distance' is a term with a very specific meaning: The distance at which the far limit of depth of field is at infinity. This distance is always at a distance on the focusing scale that is halfways between infinity and the near limit of d.o.f., which you can confirm by a look at the scale. The hyperfocal distance is also, as you can see, exactly twice the near limit distance. With a 35mm lens e.g., at f:8, when focused at 5m (the hyperfocal distance for this f-stop, according to the over-optimistic scale), the index from the far '8' marking is at infinity, and that from the near '8' marking is at 2.5m. Q.E.D.

So 'hyperfocal distance' is a distinct, particular and useful term, and if we arbitrarily start using it for something else, we lose the specific use of it. Not a good idea. Technical language is a tool which should be kept in working order, sharp and precise.

We have had several discussions here of depth of field, circles of confusion etc., so I won't repeat them here.

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Old 04/06/10, 07:33   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

And b.t.w., the Leica site says about the Universal Wide Angle Finder that "The eyepiece has a screw mount for optionally available diopter correction lenses." These should be the same as those for the camera eyepiece.

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Old 04/06/10, 08:32   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

Lars, actually I did mean hyperfocal. I was assuming the case that infinity was set at some f-stop and the OP would then use the grey numbers on the WATE (which are the closest distances) to check for the near focus limit as an example for him why these numbers are on the lens even though he reports that he can't turn the lens that far.

I understand that the hyperfocal distance is the closest distance at which a lens can be focused while keeping objects at infinity acceptably sharp. So, that is one reason why they are there. But, in all cases this is not how they (the grey numbers) are used and it is not be true when infinity is not chosen as the distance setting. In that case, they are used for DOF because by definition there is no hyperfocal.

DOF is the more inclusive term but, hyperfocal still works as a way to explain the use of the grey distance markings... what do you think... let my off on this one this time?

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Old 04/06/10, 15:08   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

The engraved numbers and indexes on a lens barrel are for general d.o.f. estimates. They CAN be used for a hyperfocal setting of course, but need not. So the difference of meaning is relevant.

The denotation of a word is determined as much by what IS NOT denotated, as by what IS. When every word denotes every thing, we are reduced to communicating in grunts. The latest research indicates that not even the Neandertals did that.

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Old 04/06/10, 15:55   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by lars_bergquist View Post
The engraved numbers and indexes on a lens barrel are for general d.o.f. estimates. They CAN be used for a hyperfocal setting of course, but need not. So the difference of meaning is relevant.

The denotation of a word is determined as much by what IS NOT denotated, as by what IS. When every word denotes every thing, we are reduced to communicating in grunts. The latest research indicates that not even the Neandertals did that.

The hyperfocused old man
Ok fine, I tried to be cute with your retentive personality and you make an ad hominem argument back to me. Here it is again, I meant hyperfocal to explain a use for the smaller distance markings on the lens on the left side of infinite often used to determine hyperfocal (the smallest distance in focus). It was an example for him and it is a good example. HE WANTED TO KNOW WHY HE COULDN'T TURN THE LENS INTO THOSE DISTANCES. HE DIDN'T ASK FOR A DEFINITION OF DOF. Sure, the numbers are there to determine DOF and I think that everyone knows that. But, more often than not you are using the numbers on the left (the ones the OP asked about) to determine hyperfocal, at least I do. I know this is one of your hobby horses Lars but, you aren't the only one that understands optics.

The semi-old man from the age of when men weren't so pedantic
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Last edited by RickLeica; 04/06/10 at 15:58.
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Old 04/06/10, 16:50   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

The OPs search could not have been very thorough, I found this straight away.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ml#post1091655


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Old 04/06/10, 17:14   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

Or this 15 second search on Leica site...Leica Camera AG - Photography - LEICA UNIVERSAL WIDE-ANGLE VIEWFINDER M

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Old 04/06/10, 17:15   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

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I must obviously not know how to use the search function. With "Tri-Elmar", "WATE" or "Tri-Elmar WATE" your thread did not show up in the first 100 responses. I did not, in my ignorance, specifically use "TriElmar (WATE)" in the search. Many threads I did find brushed the subject, but did not answer it as directly as your referenced thread did. Thank you for the link. Next time I will go through the next 200 or 300 threads before I request a quickly found answer. Guess we Americans are not patient enough.

And thanks 01af for the catalog number- much appreciated. Lead me right to the source. The interesting thing is that many places have it as discontinued, for it appears to be shared with the R Cameras. A few places still have it. Thanks.
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Last edited by tdtaylor; 04/06/10 at 17:29.
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Old 04/06/10, 17:28   #12 (permalink)
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You are correct- I also just realized the Leica site is blocked from work- just had my IT group add it to the exceptions since I use the camera for work. Usually search in the evenings from home. Learn something everyday. This actually answers an number of past questions.
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Last edited by tdtaylor; 04/06/10 at 17:33.
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Old 04/06/10, 17:42   #13 (permalink)
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You are correct- I also just realized the Leica site is blocked from work- just had my IT group add it to the exceptions since I use the camera for work. Usually search in the evenings from home. Learn something everyday. This actually answers an number of past questions.
Incredible how fast one can Google info provided online...Morris & Ritchie Associates, Inc. and Geo-Technology Associates, Inc.

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Old 04/06/10, 17:56   #14 (permalink)
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Here it is again, I meant hyperfocal to explain a use for the smaller distance markings on the lens on the left side of infinite often used to determine hyperfocal (the smallest distance in focus).
Both your understanding of what hyperfocal distance is in the first place and your reasoning as to why there are inaccessible distance numbers provided on the WATE's barrel (i. e. the range from 0.3 to 0.5 m) are wrong. The correct answer has been given. So can we move on please?
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Old 04/06/10, 18:01   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

Yes, use it dozens of times a day for material, supplier info, tax and land records, etc. We live by it. But with a firm our size, we have to block a fair number of sites. The best one was a site for an civic organization I am an office- but because a masseuse is listed in the membership, our firewall blocked it. My partner was even the President! Needless to say, it was added to the exception list.

At some point Google your neighbors- scary how much info you can get on them. At least here in the US.
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Old 04/06/10, 19:08   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

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Both your understanding of what hyperfocal distance is in the first place and your reasoning as to why there are inaccessible distance numbers provided on the WATE's barrel (i. e. the range from 0.3 to 0.5 m) are wrong. The correct answer has been given. So can we move on please?
Actually YOU must not understand. Both answers are right. The DOF of Lars is more specific. But, you are correct that the answer has been given. And, yes we can move on if you wish.
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Old 04/06/10, 19:17   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

The eye-piece correction lenses for the Frankenfinder are the same as were used in the Leica R8/R9. It would be interesting to know if Leica thought about this when they pulled the R system from production...
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Old 07/06/10, 15:26   #18 (permalink)
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I have searched high and low for the Frankenfinder/R8-9 corrective eyepiece for -1.0 No where to be found in the US, although I found the -3.0 in stock at a few places. At two places I thought I found it, ordered it, only to be emailed after the fact it was not in stock. Many places have noted it is "discontinued" or "no longer available."

Did end up finding a copy at The LeicaShop in Austria. Spoke to a friend at Adorama, and he mentioned it appears that since the R line is not continued, they have stopped making the diopter correction lenses for it.

Almost makes me think I should order a second.
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Old 07/06/10, 16:17   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: WATE Questions

Did anybody think of contacting Solms directly regarding this diopter?
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Old 07/06/10, 16:27   #20 (permalink)
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JAAP- never have contacted Solms, only dealt with Leica NJ. If I hadn't been able to find the diopter, that was my next move.

Posted it more for general information and verification- seems strange they would drop a product accessory which supports a current product.
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