marknorton Posted September 30, 2009 Share #41 Posted September 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I would certainly like to see a viewfinder which does away with the need for aux finders, magnifiers and dioptres but I agree that most of the rest of the list is feature-bloat which gets away from the essence of M photography. If you don't get it, maybe the M is not for you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 Hi marknorton, Take a look here M9 – A Giant Leap in the Right Direction – Still Some Distance To Go. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
larryk34 Posted September 30, 2009 Share #42 Posted September 30, 2009 You post makes not sense to me at all. You said you also use a Canon DSLR. Are you trying to replace that camera with an M10? Why would you want to do that; just use your Canon DSLR and forget about Leica. It sounds like Canon and Niknon only need to make one change to satisfy you: improved IQ. How hard can that be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted September 30, 2009 Share #43 Posted September 30, 2009 At the core of this discussion is the issue of balance between functionality and simplicity, and delivering beneficial functionality while being frugal with user complexity. We all accept (I hope) that adding the complexity of a coupled rangefinder, slow speeds, flash synch, self timer, automatically selected frame lines, alternate frame line preview, bayonet mount and parallax correction were good tradeoffs. I don't think Leica is at the end of the development road, where nothing more needs to added and further complexity is unbearable. I'm glad that Leica engineers since the beginning have pressed forward with innovation (more during some periods than others), striking a balance between functionality and simplicity. ModernMan, that's well stated. I agree with your sentiments. I think you've run into a lot of sentiment that is anti-Modern, or rather, pro-Status Quo. The argument for simplicity is a false one. Otherwise, everyone promoting simplicity would have firmly rejected such innovations as the coupled rangefinder, parallax correction, the bayonet mount, in-camera metering and ... the worst offender of all ... digital photography. The Canon 5DMkII is not a system about to die from technology blot or mission blot. It's a great success and, in skilled hands, is simple to use. By allowing extensive customization to the user's needs and habits, its technological complexity offers the means to simplify function. As for wheels still being round, who still drives on tires designed in the 1950's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share #44 Posted September 30, 2009 You post makes not sense to me at all. You said you also use a Canon DSLR. Are you trying to replace that camera with an M10? Why would you want to do that; just use your Canon DSLR and forget about Leica. It sounds like Canon and Niknon only need to make one change to satisfy you: improved IQ. How hard can that be? Not trying to replace my Canon SLR with the M9 (M10). Different tools for different purposes. The Leica M is a superior tool in many ways, certainly the camera of choice for a good-sized class of photographic work. But it can be improved. Generally I use the Canon 5DII where I would have used a Leica M with Visoflex in the past. And I did try my Visoflex on the M9 and it works great. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share #45 Posted September 30, 2009 I would certainly like to see a viewfinder which does away with the need for aux finders, magnifiers and dioptres but I agree that most of the rest of the list is feature-bloat which gets away from the essence of M photography. If you don't get it, maybe the M is not for you? Its not clear to me how any of the first 17 items "get away from the essence of M photography", but perhaps thats subjective. I've been fortunate to have used Leica M's for about 40 years (I was late to the game, using my dad's IIIf well into the late 60's) so I like to think I get what M photography is about. I just don't think "getting it" means rejecting enhacements which would make the camera more convenient and effrective. I do remember when the M-motor came out there was a bit of scorn around it being an assault on the essence of M-photography (trying to be like Nikon), but I liked it. I think if the M9 were to fire as fast as a Leica M with M-motor, the essence of M-photography would remain intact, may even more robust. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share #46 Posted September 30, 2009 ModernMan, that's well stated. I agree with your sentiments. I think you've run into a lot of sentiment that is anti-Modern, or rather, pro-Status Quo. The argument for simplicity is a false one. Otherwise, everyone promoting simplicity would have firmly rejected such innovations as the coupled rangefinder, parallax correction, the bayonet mount, in-camera metering and ... the worst offender of all ... digital photography. The Canon 5DMkII is not a system about to die from technology blot or mission blot. It's a great success and, in skilled hands, is simple to use. By allowing extensive customization to the user's needs and habits, its technological complexity offers the means to simplify function. As for wheels still being round, who still drives on tires designed in the 1950's? zlatkob, thank-you for your camaraderie in this interesting discussion. Perhaps my post would have sparked less outrage and expletive had I adopted the tag "VintageMan" or "ClassicalMan" instead of "ModernMan", but the discussion is welcome and thought provoking in any case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted September 30, 2009 Share #47 Posted September 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Its not clear to me how any of the first 17 items "get away from the essence of M photography", but perhaps thats subjective. It is objective. The essence of M photography as you call it, is to be able to capture the "decisive moment". And to do this you don't need hitec at all. All those "features" on dSLRs work against this rule. Understood? Some prefer to buy complicated electronic watches that can do it all except maybe brewing coffee. Others prefer to pay more and buy complicated mechanical watches. Simply, the M philosophy or system is not for you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKK dan Posted September 30, 2009 Share #48 Posted September 30, 2009 Why all the sarcasm in here? That is a thoughtful important post and much of the requested innovation doesn't seem to be not realistic. The S2 offers much of it - weather sealing, screen options, speed ... The price is slightly different, but still, for an M9 you intentionally pay more for less. It's all about reductionalism and essentialism, i guess. And puritanism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted September 30, 2009 Share #49 Posted September 30, 2009 What you guys cannot understand is, that Leica does not want to destroy its legacy of 50+ years in favor of some questionable weather seals. Here, you are presented with the smallest and lightest camera in the world, with exceptional IQ and precision, and you try to convince others to dump all this for some LCD screen with 900000 pixels. Well it's not gonna happen. There are products out there to fill the list: even from Leica with S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted September 30, 2009 Share #50 Posted September 30, 2009 Wow, that is an aggressively retro view. Weather seals and an improved LCD would destroy a 50+ year legacy? Did the 50+ year legacy somehow depend on a lack of weather seals and a low resolution LCD? Then you must only shoot film, because surely digital "destroyed" the legacy much more than additional resolution in the LCD ever could. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted September 30, 2009 Share #51 Posted September 30, 2009 Its not clear to me how any of the first 17 items "get away from the essence of M photography", but perhaps thats subjective. What about 10 i/s? Do you really need to shoot this way with a M for instance? Why all the sarcasm in here? That is a thoughtful important post and much of the requested innovation doesn't seem to be not realistic. Leicas are full of innovation and modernism but some people confuse them with japanese marketing like "I've increased FPS from 8i/s to 10i/s". For instance, M9 is by far the smallest FF camera on the market and practically the same size as its analog counterpart when modern DSLR have grown a lot. It also has a very simple and appreciated ergonomy. Believe it or not but keeping it this small and simple does not go very well with many ModernMan demands. Anyway, there are plenty of thing in his list that would be good things. But where he misses the point is the length of the list. A M is simple, easy to use whilst shooting with not so many options to choose from. This is why people who buy it like it. This was the same for R and it seems to be the same for the S2. You praise it as modern design but someone like ModernMan would ask for interchangeable backs and viewfinders, more dedicated buttons, higher FPS, possibility to shoot film... And in the end, you have a "sum of it all" product. Whatever the domain is, they are usually ill-engineered, hard to use, not reliable, bigger and not state of the at in any of the domains. Should Leica launch such an M, ModernMan would complain that its DSLR has still higher FPS, a even better OLED articulated screen, no multiple frames in the viewfinder, a depth of field preview, the meteo previsions in the viewfinder, a GPS... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted September 30, 2009 Share #52 Posted September 30, 2009 Wow, that is an aggressively retro view. Weather seals and an improved LCD would destroy a 50+ year legacy? Did the 50+ year legacy somehow depend on a lack of weather seals and a low resolution LCD? Then you must only shoot film, because surely digital "destroyed" the legacy much more than additional resolution in the LCD ever could. No, this is you over-simplifying other people point of view... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted September 30, 2009 Share #53 Posted September 30, 2009 Wow, that is an aggressively retro view. Weather seals and an improved LCD would destroy a 50+ year legacy? Did the 50+ year legacy somehow depend on a lack of weather seals and a low resolution LCD? Then you must only shoot film, because surely digital "destroyed" the legacy much more than additional resolution in the LCD ever could. Ok 50 years back they couldn't have thought of LCDs, but what about weather seals? Or it didn't rain back then as it does now ? You both keeping the legacy AND shoot digital and at the same you do all this using only 2 variables: Aperture and Speed. What more could you wish? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted September 30, 2009 Share #54 Posted September 30, 2009 No, this is you over-simplifying other people point of view... Well, post #49 was pretty adamant about it. As for simplifying other people's point of view, you've just imagined what ModernMan's complaints would be if Leica ever made such an M. Sounds like you're dismissing him as a complainer, never satisfied. In fairness read the original post again and you may find someone who is delighted with the M9 and answers his own question about whether Leica made a mistake in producing the M9 with an "Emphatic No!" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted September 30, 2009 Share #55 Posted September 30, 2009 Sounds like you're dismissing him as a complainer, never satisfied. He posted a 23 points list of things he wants on top of a camera 3 weeks old, some of them contradictory... Seems fair to see him as never satisfied indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 30, 2009 Share #56 Posted September 30, 2009 Leica way is for simplicity, and this, imho, excludes the adding of sophisticated electronic functions (like Wi-fi, multiple card formats, high fps, image stabilization, hi res LCD etc...) ; but, I think, Leica has already started to evaluate how a M10 will be, and with which features : now that they have reached the important goal of 24x36, and given that sensor tech is not an inside question, they probably must decide if to continue with the most traditional element of M line : the VF/RF with frames; indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if they are evaluating if is the case to give it a complete redesign as it was at the transition from LTMs to M series, and this could open the way to zooming VF or similar: apart this strategic choice, the rest of improvements' list is a mix of appreciable ones, with others which tend to a higher compexity of the camera, which I think is not in the goals of Leica, nor in the desire of many users: M line cannot recap a significant market share : DSLR are definitely more general purpose cameras (expecially for pros) and trying to "emulate" their completeness into a different product philosophy wouldn't be worth in terms of return on the efforts to achieve this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted September 30, 2009 Share #57 Posted September 30, 2009 He posted a 23 points list of things he wants on top of a camera 3 weeks old, some of them contradictory...Seems fair to see him as never satisfied indeed. But imagining his future complaints is a classic straw man argument. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted September 30, 2009 Share #58 Posted September 30, 2009 But imagining his future complaints is a classic straw man argument. No. Simple logical deduction when someone asks for 10 i/s on a Leica M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted September 30, 2009 Share #59 Posted September 30, 2009 Ok 50 years back they couldn't have thought of LCDs, but what about weather seals? Or it didn't rain back then as it does now ? You both keeping the legacy AND shoot digital and at the same you do all this using only 2 variables: Aperture and Speed. What more could you wish? Weather seals don't inhibit adjustment of the aperture or shutter speed, so I don't think they destroy the 50+ year legacy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted September 30, 2009 Share #60 Posted September 30, 2009 Weather seals don't inhibit adjustment of the aperture or shutter speed, so I don't think they destroy the 50+ year legacy. On a Leica M, the aperture command is mechanical, on the lens and easy to move. Weather sealing it might not be that simple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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