diogenis Posted October 2, 2009 Share #221 Posted October 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ModernMan, you deserve a medal for putting up with so much nonsense and still coming back smiling. You’re the voice of reason in a sea of sentiment. zlatkob, you’ve also made some cogent points. I especially enjoyed your account of how camera features come to be accepted as part of Leica’s evolving “philosophy and tradition” in the teeth of initial opposition. If Leica watches this forum, I hope they pay more attention to what you two have had to say than to the derisive responses from some of the forum regulars. I suspect they will. I'm sure the company understands how much electronic complexity has to go into keeping things simple for the photographer, even if some here prefer not to. While I’m here I’ll cast my vote for two features that make photography simpler for me - a sensor cleaning mechanism and in-body image stabilisation, provided that they can be turned off if not required. The technical problems will be solved and it will come, diehards, and you’ll love it when it does! If they do watch this thread, I'm sure they are having a blast, much like most of us that is... Sensor cleaning and IS makes photography simpler for you??? care to explain please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 Hi diogenis, Take a look here M9 – A Giant Leap in the Right Direction – Still Some Distance To Go. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
fotografr Posted October 2, 2009 Share #222 Posted October 2, 2009 ModernMan, you deserve a medal for putting up with so much nonsense and still coming back smiling. You’re the voice of reason in a sea of sentiment. zlatkob, you’ve also made some cogent points. I especially enjoyed your account of how camera features come to be accepted as part of Leica’s evolving “philosophy and tradition” in the teeth of initial opposition. If Leica watches this forum, I hope they pay more attention to what you two have had to say than to the derisive responses from some of the forum regulars. I suspect they will. I'm sure the company understands how much electronic complexity has to go into keeping things simple for the photographer, even if some here prefer not to. Well said. I haven't seen such a wave of childish ranting since, well, the introduction of the M8. People back then complained that the grip was too slippery, they had to use IR/UV filters, the shutter was too loud, it wasn't weatherproof, they didn't like the 1.33x crop, the back buttons were too easily pressed by mistake, the AWB was terrible, the higher ISO performance was poor, and on and on. Well, Leica listened and gave them the M9 with a lot of those annoyances corrected. Still, the camera isn't perfect. So along comes someone who starts a very well reasoned thread detailing what, in his opinion, could still be improved upon with the next digital M, and he gets ridiculed like the village idiot. I really thought some of you were better than that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 2, 2009 Share #223 Posted October 2, 2009 As Brent says we had all this with the M8. But the essence is that many M-users moved here not only to use a rangefinder but also to get away from the [completely unecessary] multitude of electronic options found on DSLRs. To see constant repeat posting proposing the opposite just gets so tiresome. Some people want this stuff, maybe Leica will add it but if they do then they will lose customers like me. That's a fact. I dont want it, I dont need it, I wont use it and I dont even want to see it as options on the camera and I dont want to pay for it. I want a plain and simple camera. Perhaps it is because I have shot film for most of my life when I managed to enjoy photography not electronics. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted October 2, 2009 Share #224 Posted October 2, 2009 As Brent says we had all this with the M8. But the essence is that many M-users moved here not only to use a rangefinder but also to get away from the [completely unecessary] multitude of electronic options found on DSLRs. To see constant repeat posting proposing the opposite just gets so tiresome. Some people want this stuff, maybe Leica will add it but if they do then they will lose customers like me. That's a fact. I dont want it, I dont need it, I wont use it and I dont even want to see it as options on the camera and I dont want to pay for it. I want a plain and simple camera. Perhaps it is because I have shot film for most of my life when I managed to enjoy photography not electronics. Jeff Spot on, we should make a sticky out of this statement! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted October 2, 2009 Share #225 Posted October 2, 2009 As Brent says we had all this with the M8. But the essence is that many M-users moved here not only to use a rangefinder but also to get away from the [completely unecessary] multitude of electronic options found on DSLRs. To see constant repeat posting proposing the opposite just gets so tiresome. Some people want this stuff, maybe Leica will add it but if they do then they will lose customers like me. That's a fact. I dont want it, I dont need it, I wont use it and I dont even want to see it as options on the camera and I dont want to pay for it. I want a plain and simple camera. Perhaps it is because I have shot film for most of my life when I managed to enjoy photography not electronics. Jeff There's a lot on the camera I don't want either, and I don't agree with many of the suggestions from MM. If I had my way, the M9 wouldn't even have a motorized advance. Give me the thumb lever anyday. It's just that people should be able to make suggestions and have them debated on their merit rather than being ridiculed and cursed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EarlBurrellPhoto Posted October 2, 2009 Share #226 Posted October 2, 2009 When someone wants to provide universal healthcare in its country, opposition manages to somehow transform the debate in "socialism vs freedom". Yes, isn't that annoying? Here in Canada we have universal government-run healthcare, and we know it has nothing to do with socialism vs freedom. It has to do with sickness vs health. If we want to get treated in a timely fashion we need to have cash and live close to the US border. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted October 2, 2009 Share #227 Posted October 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) As Brent says we had all this with the M8. But the essence is that many M-users moved here not only to use a rangefinder but also to get away from the [completely unecessary] multitude of electronic options found on DSLRs. To see constant repeat posting proposing the opposite just gets so tiresome. Some people want this stuff, maybe Leica will add it but if they do then they will lose customers like me. That's a fact. I dont want it, I dont need it, I wont use it and I dont even want to see it as options on the camera and I dont want to pay for it. I want a plain and simple camera. Perhaps it is because I have shot film for most of my life when I managed to enjoy photography not electronics. Jeff Yes, well put. I seem to remember a thread some time ago about 'features' on the M8 which could be removed (rather than adding more) and if I recall correctly, there were a fair few on the list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted October 2, 2009 Share #228 Posted October 2, 2009 Sensor cleaning and IS makes photography simpler for you??? care to explain please? Sensor cleaning makes photography simpler by minimizing the need to Photoshop the dust bunnies that appear when shooting at smaller apertures, and by reducing camera preparation time before photographing an event, especially if you use multiple cameras. Sensor cleaning can operate in the background when switching the camera on or off. As far as I know, Leica M tradition & philosophy does not require Photoshopping dust bunnies or cleaning digital sensors, so sensor cleaning should not violate anyone's core principles. Image Stabilization makes photography simpler by improving the steadiness of telephoto shots and reducing the need for a tripod. It extends the low light range into which the photographer can reliably handhold the camera. Sharp photos and less gear to carry are also consistent with Leica tradition & philosophy. The beauty of sensor cleaning and image stabilization technologies is that they provide benefits in the background without interfering with anyone's photography (and they can be turned off). Their biggest burden on the photographer is that they add a few extra pages to the instruction manual. I know that the opposing view says "Oh no! More new technology!" -- but there is a big boatload of new technology in the M8 and M9 -- never seen before on any M camera in history -- and all of that seems to be acceptable and desirable, and everyone is happy when it helps them make great photos. It is certainly true that we don't need these technologies. But if and when Leica implements sensor cleaning and/or IS, their benefits will be obvious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
virgilius Posted October 2, 2009 Share #229 Posted October 2, 2009 Fully agree that a M10 should have the size of an MP or an M7! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted October 2, 2009 Share #230 Posted October 2, 2009 camera isn't perfect. So along comes someone who starts a very well reasoned thread detailing what, in his opinion, could still be improved upon with the next digital M, and he gets ridiculed like the village idiot. I really thought some of you were better than that. His opinion is that we need bigger cards in a smaller body, 10 fps like a sport-oriented camera in a Leica M, remove control and viewing like a studio camera in a Leica M... So, you might think "well-reasoned" to do the list of everything available on the market and saying "I want them all in the more compact and traditional camera available" but I thought better of you too. Because this is exactly like wanting a compact sports car with room and transportation capabilitites of a SUV. Or a very compact laptop with a 30" screen, the speed of a MacPro and 12 hours of battery life... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 2, 2009 Share #231 Posted October 2, 2009 Sensor cleaning makes photography simpler by minimizing the need to Photoshop the dust bunnies that appear when shooting at smaller apertures, and by reducing camera preparation time before photographing an event, especially if you use multiple cameras. Sensor cleaning can operate in the background when switching the camera on or off. As far as I know, Leica M tradition & philosophy does not require Photoshopping dust bunnies or cleaning digital sensors, so sensor cleaning should not violate anyone's core principles. Image Stabilization makes photography simpler by improving the steadiness of telephoto shots and reducing the need for a tripod. It extends the low light range into which the photographer can reliably handhold the camera. Sharp photos and less gear to carry are also consistent with Leica tradition & philosophy. The beauty of sensor cleaning and image stabilization technologies is that they provide benefits in the background without interfering with anyone's photography (and they can be turned off). Their biggest burden on the photographer is that they add a few extra pages to the instruction manual. I know that the opposing view says "Oh no! More new technology!" -- but there is a big boatload of new technology in the M8 and M9 -- never seen before on any M camera in history -- and all of that seems to be acceptable and desirable, and everyone is happy when it helps them make great photos. It is certainly true that we don't need these technologies. But if and when Leica implements sensor cleaning and/or IS, their benefits will be obvious. That is true in your dSLRs, not on Leicas. Leicas provide great and fast lenses. Sensor dust can easily get removed with a brush. And its not catching dust that easy either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulrikft Posted October 2, 2009 Share #232 Posted October 2, 2009 That is true in your dSLRs, not on Leicas. Leicas provide great and fast lenses. Sensor dust can easily get removed with a brush. And its not catching dust that easy either Ehrm.. WHAT is not true on Leicas? That you spend time removing dustbunnies? Are Leica sensor magically easier to clean than dSLR sensor? And well, my d700 + 58 1.2 give me far more low light capability than a M9 + 50 0.95, sadly, if the M9 had been on the D700 level low-light wise, I would have gotten it already, now I'm planning to wait for it to be avilable on the used market for far less... :/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 2, 2009 Share #233 Posted October 2, 2009 There is a difference between the M8/9 and a DSLR, the access to the sensor. I have had my M8s for two plus years now. The sensors were cleaned once, shortly after purchase by the dealer, since then I've only had to use a bulb blower. No need in my view for 'shaking' sensor. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 2, 2009 Share #234 Posted October 2, 2009 Ehrm.. WHAT is not true on Leicas? That you spend time removing dustbunnies? Are Leica sensor magically easier to clean than dSLR sensor? And well, my d700 + 58 1.2 give me far more low light capability than a M9 + 50 0.95, sadly, if the M9 had been on the D700 level low-light wise, I would have gotten it already, now I'm planning to wait for it to be avilable on the used market for far less... :/ Why do you want to do that? your D700 and your 58 1.2 gives you better light capability. Why do you wanna grab a 2nd hand M9??? As for dustbunnies I don't remove them in photoshop, coz they simply are not there: remember: this is a Leica we are talking here, not another dirty dSLR... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted October 2, 2009 Share #235 Posted October 2, 2009 That is true in your dSLRs, not on Leicas. Leicas provide great and fast lenses. Sensor dust can easily get removed with a brush. And its not catching dust that easy either No, this is equally true with Leicas. I've seen plenty of dust bunnies from all cameras, including Leica. Cleaning sensor dust in a series of wedding photos may be easy but it's very time-consuming; suddenly you realize you have better things to do. And if you ever have to work in a dusty environment or travel somewhere dusty .... Leica does offer great and fast lenses, but IS extends even their usability into lower light (as does improved high ISO performance -- which M users wanted -- because great fast lenses are not always enough). IS also extends the range of Leica's many not-so-fast lenses (f/2 and smaller). IS also aids the Leica photographer who has less steady hands. BTW, I can't believe someone is defending sensor dust as easy to remove -- when did Photoshopping dust bunnies become integral to the Leica philosophy? If and when Leica implements sensor cleaning technology, the benefits will seem more obvious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share #236 Posted October 2, 2009 ... remote control and viewing like a studio camera in a Leica M... In point of fact, what I proposed was "(20) Remote operation controlled by computer". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the M8 have this when it was originally launched? The "Leica Digital Capture" software provided this functionality but was subsequently dropped by Leica. Perhaps the old version even works with the M9, has anyone tried that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 2, 2009 Share #237 Posted October 2, 2009 No, this is equally true with Leicas. I've seen plenty of dust bunnies from all cameras, including Leica. Cleaning sensor dust in a series of wedding photos may be easy but it's very time-consuming; suddenly you realize you have better things to do. And if you ever have to work in a dusty environment or travel somewhere dusty .... No it is not equal with Leicas. You wet clean the sensor a couple of times and then you forget about dustbunnies. I don't know how you do it with your Nikons but this is what happens with my M8 Leica does offer great and fast lenses, but IS extends even their usability into lower light (as does improved high ISO performance -- which M users wanted -- because great fast lenses are not always enough). IS also extends the range of Leica's many not-so-fast lenses (f/2 and smaller). IS also aids the Leica photographer who has less steady hands. What are you talking about here? There are NO IS leica lenses, how can you say something that is simply not there and does this and that? And there are also no lens afaik in the Nikon range giving you 0.95 F which have IS, so you are again comparing things that don't exist from experiences you get from brochures about stuff you dont understand. BTW, I can't believe someone is defending sensor dust as easy to remove -- when did Photoshopping dust bunnies become integral to the Leica philosophy? If and when Leica implements sensor cleaning technology, the benefits will seem more obvious. There is no photoshopping dust bunnies in a Leica user... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted October 2, 2009 Share #238 Posted October 2, 2009 What are you talking about here? There are NO IS leica lenses, Wow, I thought I was clear. Forgive me for not being clearer. I was not saying that Leica lenses have IS; everyone knows they don't. I was explaining the benefits of having IS. Remember you asked how IS makes photography simpler. I thought my answer was clear in the context of this discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 2, 2009 Share #239 Posted October 2, 2009 Actually for a Leica the register distance lens to sensor has to be very accurate and rigid, no AF and focus determined by the independant rangefinder. I can imagine the focus inaccuracies that could be introduced by a vibrating sensor. A RF camera is different chaps, different in operation, in conception, in use and in the photographs it helps you take. Just enjoy instead of spending your time making up wish lists to transfer DSLR technology to a simple basic and wonderful RF camera. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted October 2, 2009 Share #240 Posted October 2, 2009 There is no photoshopping dust bunnies in a Leica user... There are a lot posts to the contrary ... just 2 examples: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/100073-sensor-dust-m9.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/95978-dust-sensor.html Dust bunnies visit the Leica factory too, but never a Leica user? http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/99091-m8-sensor-dust-remover-sticky-wand.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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