M9 – A Giant Leap in the Right Direction – Still Some Distance To Go

[ModernMan]

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What technical innovations would you like Rolex to do?

 

Quartz?

 

Digital read out?

 

Altimeter?

 

Biorhythm generator?

 

Rolex make watches. Quite good watches. Leica make cameras. Quite good cameras.

 

I'm confused.

 

This has probably been addressed on Rolex forums somewhere. But if you're of a mind that no useful mechanical technological advancement is possible beyond the current Rolex offerings, that's ok. They are quite good watches.

[ModernMan]

...no shit...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Perhaps you will share the point you think I've missed, since, judging from your application of an expletive, it is painfully obvious to you.

[bill]

Please articulale the point which I may have missed.

 

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~E.F. Schumacker

 

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. ~Albert Einstein

 

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. ~Confucius

 

Simplicity is making the journey of this life with just baggage enough. ~Author Unknown

 

Frugality is one of the most beautiful and joyful words in the English language, and yet one that we are culturally cut off from understanding and enjoying. The consumption society has made us feel that happiness lies in having things, and has failed to teach us the happiness of not having things. ~Elise Boulding

 

Everything we possess that is not necessary for life or happiness becomes a burden, and scarcely a day passes that we do not add to it. ~Robert Brault

 

Material blessings, when they pay beyond the category of need, are weirdly fruitful of headache. ~Philip Wylie

 

Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials. ~Lin Yutang

 

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~Leonardo DaVinci

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

[haroldp]

I think modernman has some good points here. Features are only negative if they cannot be ignored or disabled, or if they increase size, weight or cost.

 

The realities of modern semiconductor manufacturing economics means that this could be achieved depending on total (Leica's and the component makers other market's) volume of production.

 

That being said, there are some on the list that I do not believe would add value to most Leica Users, these are:

18 thru 23. ( remember live view is primarily useful because of autofocus, and open sensors are dust and heat magnets )

 

In the main list, some are questionable:

 

8- Weather sealing requires seals / rings in lenses as well as bodies. Nikon only discusses weather sealing with specific lenses.

 

11- CF cards would require a larger body to hold them. Modern SD cards are fast enough if the camera has enough cache. If the space could be found, I would rather have two SD cards for instant back up like the D3.

 

13- A zoom finder is a great idea, particularly if rangefinder magnification is increased, but one of the benefits of an RF camera to me is the ability to see what is outside the frame while I compose or wait, so frame lines with space outside is important.

 

One feature that has not been mentioned, which would actually make it a better picture taking machine, and revitalize all of the legacy lenses, is sensor based image stabilization.

 

I believe that with improving high ISO performance, and the worlds best collection of fast/sharp lenses, and no finder blackout, one of Leica's niches will be discreet available light photography, and sensor based image stabilization would greatly enhance this.

 

I will spend money and trade up for features that actually let me get pictures that I otherwise couldn't.

 

Regards to all ... Harold

[jonoslack]

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~E.F. Schumacker

 

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. ~Albert Einstein

 

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. ~Confucius

 

Simplicity is making the journey of this life with just baggage enough. ~Author Unknown

 

Frugality is one of the most beautiful and joyful words in the English language, and yet one that we are culturally cut off from understanding and enjoying. The consumption society has made us feel that happiness lies in having things, and has failed to teach us the happiness of not having things. ~Elise Boulding

 

Everything we possess that is not necessary for life or happiness becomes a burden, and scarcely a day passes that we do not add to it. ~Robert Brault

 

Material blessings, when they pay beyond the category of need, are weirdly fruitful of headache. ~Philip Wylie

 

Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials. ~Lin Yutang

 

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~Leonardo DaVinci

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

 

No shit

[ModernMan]

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~E.F. Schumacker

 

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. ~Albert Einstein

 

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. ~Confucius

 

Simplicity is making the journey of this life with just baggage enough. ~Author Unknown

 

Frugality is one of the most beautiful and joyful words in the English language, and yet one that we are culturally cut off from understanding and enjoying. The consumption society has made us feel that happiness lies in having things, and has failed to teach us the happiness of not having things. ~Elise Boulding

 

Everything we possess that is not necessary for life or happiness becomes a burden, and scarcely a day passes that we do not add to it. ~Robert Brault

 

Material blessings, when they pay beyond the category of need, are weirdly fruitful of headache. ~Philip Wylie

 

Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials. ~Lin Yutang

 

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~Leonardo DaVinci

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

 

Simplicity seems to be the central theme of your selected quotes. I don't think the merit of simplicity is in dispute, not by me anyway. However, I find it hard to imagine Einstein, da Vinci, Confucius, or the Dali Lama for that matter, objecting to items 1-17 (below for reference) on the basis of added complxity, or dilution of simplicity.

 

In fact:

item 2 makes the camera less prone to inadvertant error

item 3 reduces the complexity associated with screw-in diopter lenses

item 13 reduces the complexity assocated with carrying and deploying separate auxillary viewfinders, and screw-in magnifiers

item 17 addresses the complexity of user profiles interfering with intended settings

 

Which, if any, of these features necessitates added complexity?

 

1) Install/remove cards and battery without baseplate removal

2) Recessed buttons on back

3) Viewfinder diopter adjustment

4) Higher FPS (10 would be great, but at least 4)

5) Larger, higher resolution LCD (920k dot VGA)

6) Display on top of camera: exposure, battery, exposure comp, ISO, …

7) More info displayed in viewfinder: ISO, shutter (even when not using auto)

8) Weather sealing

9) Instant on – no perceptible delay until ready to shoot

10) Increased battery capacity via a grip with multiple battery capability

11) CF support for faster cards

12) Highly-wear-resistant black paint finish

13) Zoom viewfinder (or multiple discrete magnification settings) accommodating lenses from 21mm (or less) to 135mm.

14) Distance-corrected viewfinder – field of view correction in addition to the already present parallax correction.

15) MP sized body

16) Scratch resistant screen (sapphire or hardened glass)

17) User profiles where features may be unspecified so the profile does not affect the feature settings.

 

BTW -- did you provide all those quotes from memory (which would be extraordinary IMO), or did you use software to retrieve that selection?

[ModernMan]

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I think modernman has some good points here. Features are only negative if they cannot be ignored or disabled, or if they increase size, weight or cost.

 

The realities of modern semiconductor manufacturing economics means that this could be achieved depending on total (Leica's and the component makers other market's) volume of production.

 

That being said, there are some on the list that I do not believe would add value to most Leica Users, these are:

18 thru 23. ( remember live view is primarily useful because of autofocus, and open sensors are dust and heat magnets )

 

In the main list, some are questionable:

 

8- Weather sealing requires seals / rings in lenses as well as bodies. Nikon only discusses weather sealing with specific lenses.

 

11- CF cards would require a larger body to hold them. Modern SD cards are fast enough if the camera has enough cache. If the space could be found, I would rather have two SD cards for instant back up like the D3.

 

13- A zoom finder is a great idea, particularly if rangefinder magnification is increased, but one of the benefits of an RF camera to me is the ability to see what is outside the frame while I compose or wait, so frame lines with space outside is important.

 

One feature that has not been mentioned, which would actually make it a better picture taking machine, and revitalize all of the legacy lenses, is sensor based image stabilization.

 

I believe that with improving high ISO performance, and the worlds best collection of fast/sharp lenses, and no finder blackout, one of Leica's niches will be discreet available light photography, and sensor based image stabilization would greatly enhance this.

 

I will spend money and trade up for features that actually let me get pictures that I otherwise couldn't.

 

Regards to all ... Harold

 

While we're adding to the list, and at the risk of further flame, automatic sensor cleaning seems to have merit to me.

[bill]

Which, if any, of these features necessitates added complexity?

 

I've indicated in line below by use of #. I've been quite conservative in doing so.

 

 

1) Install/remove cards and battery without baseplate removal

2) Recessed buttons on back

3) Viewfinder diopter adjustment #

4) Higher FPS (10 would be great, but at least 4) #

5) Larger, higher resolution LCD (920k dot VGA) #

6) Display on top of camera: exposure, battery, exposure comp, ISO, … #

7) More info displayed in viewfinder: ISO, shutter (even when not using auto) #

8) Weather sealing #

9) Instant on – no perceptible delay until ready to shoot

10) Increased battery capacity via a grip with multiple battery capability #

11) CF support for faster cards #

12) Highly-wear-resistant black paint finish

13) Zoom viewfinder (or multiple discrete magnification settings) accommodating lenses from 21mm (or less) to 135mm. #

14) Distance-corrected viewfinder – field of view correction in addition to the already present parallax correction.

15) MP sized body

16) Scratch resistant screen (sapphire or hardened glass)

17) User profiles where features may be unspecified so the profile does not affect the feature settings.

 

And no, I didn't commit all those quotes to memory. I actually extracted them from a presentation I gave not so long ago. Since this is in danger of turning into a philosophical debate, let me direct you to this book: Amazon.com: Power of Less, The: The Fine Art of Limiting Yourself to the Essential...in Business and in Life (9781401309701): Leo Babauta: Books - you may find it useful.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[jonoslack]

HI Modern Man

Having been flippant, perhaps a more serious reply is relevant.

Bill has produced fantastic quotes, and his hashed list would almost (but not quite) agree with mine. (for instance, after 3 years I really enjoy the base plate issue . . . whereas I always hated it in my film M )

 

The point is that if you want simplicity, (which the M series has always represented) then you do need to go for it. The problem is that every enhancement you've mentioned will be important to someone, together with lots of others you haven't mentioned.

 

Most camera manufacturers are simply going along with it, and providing more and more facilities (all of which are useful to someone). So it isn't a case of picking 5, or 7, or 23 sensible ones. You either have to decide to draw the line somewhere, or to do everything.

 

Leica have drawn the line, and I think it's a line which keeps the camera simple.

 

Mind you . . I'd have had a sapphire back, and weathersealing on the shutter speed and release dials . . . but then those are MY complications

[redbaron]

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~E.F. Schumacker

 

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. ~Albert Einstein

 

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. ~Confucius

 

Simplicity is making the journey of this life with just baggage enough. ~Author Unknown

 

Frugality is one of the most beautiful and joyful words in the English language, and yet one that we are culturally cut off from understanding and enjoying. The consumption society has made us feel that happiness lies in having things, and has failed to teach us the happiness of not having things. ~Elise Boulding

 

Everything we possess that is not necessary for life or happiness becomes a burden, and scarcely a day passes that we do not add to it. ~Robert Brault

 

Material blessings, when they pay beyond the category of need, are weirdly fruitful of headache. ~Philip Wylie

 

Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials. ~Lin Yutang

 

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~Leonardo DaVinci

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

 

And;

Happiness is not having what you want but wanting what you have. - Me, et al.

[zlatkob]

If simplicity were such a virtue, we would all go everywhere by walking, or on bicycles, rather than in complex automobiles or airplanes. And we would all use simple plastic lenses on all of our cameras.

 

But there is a point at which simplicity interferes with function. And there is a point where simpler function requires a more complex design.

 

The baseplate is beautifully simple, but functionally more complex, that is, more complex to operate. For leisurely photography, it makes little difference, but for fast-paced work, it's a drag on performance.

 

A simple camera battery may last for 400 shots. A more complex camera battery may last for 2,000 shots. For someone who shoots 2,000 photos in a day, five simple batteries are needed ... or one complex battery. Hence, the simpler battery is functionally more complex and offers no virtue other than, perhaps, being cheaper.

[ModernMan]

I've indicated in line below by use of #. I've been quite conservative in doing so.

 

 

 

And no, I didn't commit all those quotes to memory. I actually extracted them from a presentation I gave not so long ago. Since this is in danger of turning into a philosophical debate, let me direct you to this book: Amazon.com: Power of Less, The: The Fine Art of Limiting Yourself to the Essential...in Business and in Life (9781401309701): Leo Babauta: Books - you may find it useful.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Very interesting. Perhaps we differ on what we are measuring the complexity of. I want a simple "user interface" to the camera. Complexity within the camera, not exposed to me, is fine, particularly if it increases convenience or effectiveness, and does not materially increase weight, size or incidence of failure.

 

So, based on that measure, item 5, higer resolution display, doesn't add complexity from my perspective. But from the point of view of the designer, it probably does. Same with weather seals.

 

Functionality that gives me an option, but does not force me to engage and make a choice (defaults to a sensible setting) serves to provide increased functionality at my discretion and does not force a more complex user experience on me. I think items 4 (higher FPS), 10 (optional battery grip), 11 (CF cards) and 13 (variable mag viewfinder) could be engineered to be delivered in that manner.

 

Items 6 and 7 display more information to the user. Although it can be ignored it does add both richness and complexity to the interface.

 

At the core of this discussion is the issue of balance between functionality and simplicity, and delivering beneficial functionality while being frugal with user complexity. We all accept (I hope) that adding the complexity of a coupled rangefinder, slow speeds, flash synch, self timer, automatically selected frame lines, alternate frame line preview, bayonet mount and parallax correction were good tradeoffs. I don't think Leica is at the end of the development road, where nothing more needs to added and further complexity is unbearable. I'm glad that Leica engineers since the beginning have pressed forward with innovation (more during some periods than others), striking a balance between functionality and simplicity.

[ModernMan]

Leica have drawn the line, and I think it's a line which keeps the camera simple.

 

 

I agree, at this point in time. But I believe that for Leica to flourish the line cannot remain stationary.

[zlatkob]

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. ~Albert Einstein

 

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. ~Confucius

 

....

 

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~Leonardo DaVinci

 

 

Great quotes. But if simplicity were such a virtue:

 

Einstein would never have gone past simple arithmetic.

 

Confucious would have only one or two aphorisms.

 

DaVinci would have drawn only stick figures.

[johnastovall]

I've seen too many systems die from technology blot and mission blot.

 

I got all the technology blot in a Canon 5DMkII I need. Let's keep Leica as clean and functional in design as a Fairbairn-Sykes stiletto.

[el.nino]

The Leica M viewfinder is a good case in point. It was great in the 1950's and hasn't changed much since. We could all benefit from an update.

 

wheels are still round...

[johnastovall]

"Until all his capacities have been explored: and it is good for him

To know that his needs and nature have no more changed in fact

in ten thousand years than the beaks of eagles."

 

"Beaks of Eagles" - Robinson Jeffers

 

Why don't we work to change the beaks of eagles?

[ModernMan]

wheels are still round...

 

Ya, but I like my radial tires.

[earleygallery]

Some more for the list (why have they been left off ?)

 

Face and/or Smile Recognition

 

LCD on front of body (for framing self portraits)

 

Snap on covers with different colours - change the colour to suit your mood!

 

Games (the camera has the LCD and multi direction controller so put it to good use and offer a range of optimized games, at least 3 included in camera and others can be downloaded by wi fi)

 

Stereo HD video

 

Built in LED torch

 

Bluetooth

 

Internet capability using the LCD and Wi fi with facebook access

 

Built in projector to display images directly onto a suitable wall/screen (a cheap P&S offers this already, come on Leica!!)

 

I've got more ideas but I think Leica should add all of the above urgently if they are to survive in the current market, who will pay the premium prices for a camera so lacking in features that even some £100 point and shoots have?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[stevem7]

I've seen too many systems die from technology blot and mission blot.

 

I got all the technology blot in a Canon 5DMkII I need. Let's keep Leica as clean and functional in design as a Fairbairn-Sykes stiletto.

 

I agree 100%!