Shootist Posted October 5, 2009 Share #21 Posted October 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'd like to stir this thread up again. Since more people are getting their M9's(me included) we should have more samples to compare. My M9 shutter release is definitely different than my M8.2. It does have 2 clicks upon release AND it does feel like there may be a slight delay in response because of this. I'm hoping this can be addressed via firmware ASAP as the "Decisive Moment" may have passed between the time I press the shutter and the shutter actually fires. I'm going to do some informal testing alongside my M8.2 and I'll try to post audio samples later. Love to hear more opinions on this issue. Best, Ron IIRC there was something like this with the original M8. The disengagement of the shutter lock was a pronounced click before the shutter actually fired. It was later reduced through firmware where it became more part of the shutter firing the first curtain. I thought this problem/syndrome was cleared up completely with the M8.2 & M8 with shutter upgrade because the lock spring, the spring that keeps the shutter locked, didn't have to be as strong as the original M8 (assumption here). Lets say it is a bug and should be cleared in later firmware updates. Might be best to report this directly to Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Hi Shootist, Take a look here shutter ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rondeb Posted October 5, 2009 Share #22 Posted October 5, 2009 IIRC there was something like this with the original M8. The disengagement of the shutter lock was a pronounced click before the shutter actually fired.It was later reduced through firmware where it became more part of the shutter firing the first curtain. I thought this problem/syndrome was cleared up completely with the M8.2 & M8 with shutter upgrade because the lock spring, the spring that keeps the shutter locked, didn't have to be as strong as the original M8 (assumption here). Lets say it is a bug and should be cleared in later firmware updates. Might be best to report this directly to Leica. I'm all with you here. I certainly hope it can be addressed with a firmware update alone. -Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 5, 2009 Share #23 Posted October 5, 2009 To be perfectly honest, I do regard this as a case of hypochondria. So many people have come to regard the arrival of the M9 as a kind of Second Coming, that they are actually straining to find fault with it -- because you see, things Divine must be Perfect. It's Perfection Angst. From the microsecond when your retina receives the photons that you will use to make the decision to release the shutter, to the first movement of your index finger, there is a reaction time which, because the action is not reflexive, must include some 'neuron time' for the actual making of the decision, plus the measurable delay while the motoric impulse travels from your cortex to the finger muscles. So it will be anything from 1/5th to 1/2 of a second. Any further lag in the camera will be completely inconsequential compared to this. Most people think their decisions are instantaneous, because we do not become aware of our decisions until AFTER we have made them. There's a lag for you! And this is an experimentally demonstrated fact. Just ask any driving teacher about 'the decisive moment'. The old man from the Age of the Ford V8 1936. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 5, 2009 Share #24 Posted October 5, 2009 From the microsecond when your retina receives the photons that you will use to make the decision to release the shutter, to the first movement of your index finger, there is a reaction time which, because the action is not reflexive, must include some 'neuron time' for the actual making of the decision, plus the measurable delay while the motoric impulse travels from your cortex to the finger muscles. So it will be anything from 1/5th to 1/2 of a second. Any further lag in the camera will be completely inconsequential compared to this. Most people think their decisions are instantaneous, because we do not become aware of our decisions until AFTER we have made them. There's a lag for you! And this is an experimentally demonstrated fact. Just ask any driving teacher about 'the decisive moment'. The old man from the Age of the Ford V8 1936. Lars one of the drills I do for the pistol shooting sport I participate in is to hold the gun ready, pointed at the target and aimed, then wait for the beep of the timer to go off. At the first sound of the beep you pull the trigger. The timer records the shots by stopping the internal clock from the sound of the shot and displaying that time on a LCD/LED screen for each shot. My best times doing this drill is about 4 tenths of a second when I actually practice. If I was to go out right now it might be closer to 6-7 tenths The best shooters in the world do it in 1-3 tenths on average Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 5, 2009 Share #25 Posted October 5, 2009 Lars one of the drills I do for the pistol shooting sport I participate in is to hold the gun ready, pointed at the target and aimed, then wait for the beep of the timer to go off. At the first sound of the beep you pull the trigger. The timer records the shots by stopping the internal clock from the sound of the shot and displaying that time on a LCD/LED screen for each shot.My best times doing this drill is about 4 tenths of a second when I actually practice. If I was to go out right now it might be closer to 6-7 tenths The best shooters in the world do it in 1-3 tenths on average Change that to hundredth of a second. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulrikft Posted October 5, 2009 Share #26 Posted October 5, 2009 1/100 of a sec would be pushing it, but the best sprinters in the world and similar people are known to have a 12/100 reaction, plus/minus. which is quite good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted October 6, 2009 Share #27 Posted October 6, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) My brief and non-intensive check on this delay seems to reveal that the time between the first and second click of the 'release' varies with the selected speed. The slower the speed, the longer the delay between 1st & 2nd click. I don't know what the nature of each click is but they are clearly separate from the close click. For the M8, the 2 clicks seem consistent in their spacing which is relatively short, presumably demanded by some mechanism to operate. For the M9, the same 2 clicks clearly vary and slow down as the selected speed is slowed. I'm wondering if this is a devise to 'eliminate' shutter bounce at slower speeds by isolating the fist action from the exposure? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 6, 2009 Share #28 Posted October 6, 2009 So we hear of some amazing reaction times. But -- these are REFLEXIVE reaction times. Any reaction that becomes habitual (like when riding a bicycle, or firing a ready gun when you hear the beep or see the target swinging) becomes reflexive, i.e. it essentially bypasses the brain. Even a visual action impulse is immediately switched over to the motoric nerves, saving lots of time. This of course is a 'survival in the wild' feature, and even our pre-human ancestors did have it. Chimps have it ... Firing when the beeper sounds, or leaping when the starter's gun goes bang, is reflexive, and can be, because there is no decision-making involved. Shall I stay in the blocks or run? No, go at the sound. The decision that this is the decisive photographic moment, however, can never be a reflex. It has to be made, with all that entails. So it takes time. Much more time than the shutter lag of a M camera. Being an ex-pistolero myself, and a photo enthusiast since about 1948, the microscopic lag of a finder camera has never bothered me. Now if it also does not bother seasoned pros like Brett ot Reid, better men than I, then this maybe could help to get the thing into perspective. Where it belongs. The old man again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted October 6, 2009 Share #29 Posted October 6, 2009 Lars, I think you are actually making sense. And no, we are not getting any younger ........... maybe just wiser. another old ............... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 6, 2009 Share #30 Posted October 6, 2009 Lars, I think you are actually making sense. And no, we are not getting any younger ........... maybe just wiser. another old ............... And more good-looking, don't forget that! The obstreperous old man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted October 6, 2009 Share #31 Posted October 6, 2009 And more good-looking, don't forget that! The obstreperous old man Obstreperous! Yes I've been accused of that. More good looking?........... I'm still waiting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted October 6, 2009 Share #32 Posted October 6, 2009 The decision that this is the decisive photographic moment, however, can never be a reflex. It has to be made, with all that entails. So it takes time. Much more time than the shutter lag of a M camera. Being an ex-pistolero myself, and a photo enthusiast since about 1948, the microscopic lag of a finder camera has never bothered me. Now if it also does not bother seasoned pros like Brett ot Reid, better men than I, then this maybe could help to get the thing into perspective. Where it belongs. The old man again ...not to mention all the old sports and wildlife photos taken with half-plate Thornton Pickard reflexes. Some pressmen used to boast they could roll a cigarette in the time it took for the mirror to rise and the shutter to open. Or maybe I'm exagerrating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 6, 2009 Share #33 Posted October 6, 2009 Lars, I think you are actually making sense. And no, we are not getting any younger ........... maybe just wiser. another old ............... Reminds me of a line from an old David Gilmour song, "The End": Thinking that we're getting older and wiser, when we're just getting old. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted October 6, 2009 Share #34 Posted October 6, 2009 I'm with Lars and others on this, as I posted in the other thread (why two, similar threads? Very confusing) I'm sure it's a perceived rather than an actual problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondeb Posted October 6, 2009 Share #35 Posted October 6, 2009 I'm with Lars and others on this, as I posted in the other thread (why two, similar threads? Very confusing) I'm sure it's a perceived rather than an actual problem. Have u shot with the M9? This is not just a perceived issue. There is a significant delay compared to the M8.2. Other M9 owners please speak up and let's get this addressed by Leica. I agree that these 2 threads could be 1. Best, Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elansprint72 Posted October 6, 2009 Share #36 Posted October 6, 2009 Could be just yours? Not sure but if this was a wide spread problem there would be more then just your post on the topic. There are: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/98243-m9-shutter-lag.html A case for thread-merging, perhaps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted October 6, 2009 Share #37 Posted October 6, 2009 Have u shot with the M9? This is not just a perceived issue. There is a significant delay compared to the M8.2. Other M9 owners please speak up and let's get this addressed by Leica.I agree that these 2 threads could be 1. Best, Ron Yes Ron, I have shot the M9, I've had one since day two (the 10th). For me it's simply the perception of the sound and feel of the shutter operation in the various modes, as it is for any modern high end camera. Andy Piper's (Adan) shots of a moving target and a fixed reference point, on page one of this thread, illustrate a practical real world test. As I posted in the other thread, I've no doubt that actual lag can be measured scientifically in milliseconds for any camera (the M9 may or may not be different from the M8 in this respect) but I doubt that it can be sensed at those intervals by the photographer's finger on the shutter release. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondeb Posted October 6, 2009 Share #38 Posted October 6, 2009 OK. I've posted a recording of the M8.2 and M9 side by side. I've also fired both shutters at the same time, side by side while looking at the shutter inside the camera. I know it's not scientific or completely accurate, but the M8.2 fires before the M9 every time. OK - enough for me on this issue for now. I'm going shooting. Here's the sound link: MobileMe Gallery Best, Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 6, 2009 Share #39 Posted October 6, 2009 OK. I've posted a recording of the M8.2 and M9 side by side. I've also fired both shutters at the same time, side by side while looking at the shutter inside the camera. I know it's not scientific or completely accurate, but the M8.2 fires before the M9 every time. OK - enough for me on this issue for now. I'm going shooting. Here's the sound link: MobileMe Gallery Best, Ron Ron are these cameras on the B setting. It would be better with both cameras set on B with discreet turned off. That way you can isolate the opening of the shutter from all other sounds. What is sound like now, at least to me, is each camera is set at a different shutter speed and you have them set to discreet mode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondeb Posted October 6, 2009 Share #40 Posted October 6, 2009 Ron are these cameras on the B setting. It would be better with both cameras set on B with discreet turned off. That way you can isolate the opening of the shutter from all other sounds. What is sound like now, at least to me, is each camera is set at a different shutter speed and you have them set to discreet mode. As I state in the recording, both camera are set to 1/250th, iso 160, discreet mode and then both set to 1/15s and discreet for the 2nd round. I'll give a try with B and post another. -Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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