harryhaller Posted September 19, 2009 Share #21 Posted September 19, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Added... 12. "I wanna a faster lens". This issue goes back to the sensor, and the comments seem mostly coming from people who shoot rebadged cameras with tiny sensors. To make X1 lens one stop faster, the lens will need to be much larger. There's no way out of it. On the other hand, the sensor in the X1 will likely have a 2-stop advantage over Panasonic/Leica P&Ss (at least). Which means that it will behave something like an f/1.4 lens at the 35mm equivalent setting on the D-Lux 4. I shoot ISO 800 all the time with a pair of Nikon D300s (in sunlight with the lens no more than 1 stop from fully open). 35 years ago the Japanese were able to bulid 1 and 1/2 stops faster lenses for 35mm full frame in a much smaller package. Minolta Himatic 7sII Canon Canonet GIII 17QL One of these as a digital camera with a sensor as good as a Nikon S300 I would buy immediately. HH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 Hi harryhaller, Take a look here Sir…A Little Cheese with your X1. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ljclark Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share #22 Posted September 19, 2009 35 years ago the Japanese were able to bulid 1 and 1/2 stops faster lenses for 35mm full frame in a much smaller package. 1. Those are film camera lenses, not lenses that will be required to deal with a CMOS or CCD sensor without microlenses. Without microlenses, the shooting lens is going to need some distance to minimize the oblique light strike on the sensor corners. That has an impact on the design of the lens. (Granted, Leica has the advantage of being able to tune the firmware to manage the image characteristics of just one lens -- which does allow them to make some reductions in overall lens size.) 2. Are you stating that the Minolta and Canon lenses in those to cameras are equal in all aspects to Leica's expectations for, let's say, a Summicron lens? And those designs are totally suitable for digital use? 3. Leica has decided on a extending/collapsing lens. That discussion is long since over (despite all the whining and crying here). Yet you're telling us that Leica could make a collapsing lens that is one stop faster and that has enough clearance between the lens and sensor -- and that lens will be the same size or smaller than the lens they have already decided to use for the X1? Sounds like you want to add another $500 to $1000 to the price (look at the prices for 35mm Leica lenses as they go from Summarit to Summicron to Summilux). One of these as a digital camera with a sensor as good as a Nikon S300 I would buy immediately. I love safe, meaningless statements of intent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavGreg Posted September 19, 2009 Share #23 Posted September 19, 2009 DavGreg, Please explain "no real controls." The X1 has dials for adjusting the shutter speed and aperture on the top plate, and both automatic and manual focusing. Anyone who had an Olympus XA and was not bothered by its fixed f/2.8, 35 mm lens would probably enjoy the Leica X1. Look at a Digilux 2 or a Digilux 3 with the Kit Lens. See where the aperture control is? That is where it should be- not on top. Likewise, I want a viewfinder-not an LCD. LCD displays belong on cell phones- not cameras. My 2¢. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhaller Posted September 20, 2009 Share #24 Posted September 20, 2009 1. Those are film camera lenses, not lenses that will be required to deal with a CMOS or CCD sensor without microlenses. Without microlenses, the shooting lens is going to need some distance to minimize the oblique light strike on the sensor corners. That has an impact on the design of the lens. (Granted, Leica has the advantage of being able to tune the firmware to manage the image characteristics of just one lens -- which does allow them to make some reductions in overall lens size.) 2. Are you stating that the Minolta and Canon lenses in those to cameras are equal in all aspects to Leica's expectations for, let's say, a Summicron lens? And those designs are totally suitable for digital use? 3. Leica has decided on a extending/collapsing lens. That discussion is long since over (despite all the whining and crying here). Yet you're telling us that Leica could make a collapsing lens that is one stop faster and that has enough clearance between the lens and sensor -- and that lens will be the same size or smaller than the lens they have already decided to use for the X1? Sounds like you want to add another $500 to $1000 to the price (look at the prices for 35mm Leica lenses as they go from Summarit to Summicron to Summilux). I love safe, meaningless statements of intent. Of course these lenses can't compete with todays best lenses, but they were not bad. A camera from the same era was the Leica CL. The CL with 2/40mm was a camera in the size of the Panasonic GF1 and the 2/40 has very good reputation. The M8 with an even larger sensor can handle old lenses from these days very well. On the other hand - it is 35 years later now. Optical engineers from our days should be able to design a 2/24mm crop lens that equals a 2/35mm on a 1.5x crop camera easily. Have a look at the Panasonic GF1: It has a little smaller sensor and comes with a pancake 1.7/20mm. What is it good for to design a collapsible lens if the lens is not smaller when collapsed than a pancake? For me there are two reasons not to buy a X1: 1). It has no finder. (These cheap 70's RFs had one) 2). It only comes in silver and all some 25 cameras I bought in the last 30 years were black. Right now for me the Panasonic GF1 is the better choice: It comes in black, it has interchangeable lenses, there is an EVF where I can controll sharpness, AF points, exposure point and if I want an optical finder I get a 40mm optcal finder from Voigtländer. Anyway I give the Leica X1 a chance to proof that it's pictures have a far better quality than the GF1. I waited years to find a good, small camera for travelling. I can lug around my heavy Nikon DSLR gear for another year. Until then I'm sure there will be a large number of high quality pocket cameras to choose from... or I can get a M8 with a Voigtländer 2/28mm for todays price of the X1 plus optical finder HH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljclark Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share #25 Posted September 20, 2009 Of course these lenses can't compete with todays best lenses, but they were not bad. Somehow I don't get the impression that "Not bad is good enough" is written in the new employee orientation material at Leica. Just a hunch... A camera from the same era was the Leica CL. The CL with 2/40mm was a camera in the size of the Panasonic GF1 and the 2/40 has very good reputation.The M8 with an even larger sensor can handle old lenses from these days very well. On the other hand - it is 35 years later now. Optical engineers from our days should be able to design a 2/24mm crop lens that equals a 2/35mm on a 1.5x crop camera easily. I have no idea why Leica decided not to take that easy path -- but they didn't. Matter closed. If the IS works and the firmware handles noise with some degree of competence, you'll experience at least a 1 stop ISO advantage over 4/3. And probably 2 stops over any red dot Panasonic. That makes a lens effectively f/2 or f/1.4. The DOF issue is not an issue for the target audience. Have a look at the Panasonic GF1: It has a little smaller sensor and comes with a pancake 1.7/20mm. What is it good for to design a collapsible lens if the lens is not smaller when collapsed than a pancake? For me there are two reasons not to buy a X1: 1). It has no finder. (These cheap 70's RFs had one) 2). It only comes in silver and all some 25 cameras I bought in the last 30 years were black. Right now for me the Panasonic GF1 is the better choice: It comes in black, it has interchangeable lenses, there is an EVF where I can control sharpness, AF points, exposure point and if I want an optical finder I get a 40mm optcal finder from Voigtländer. Actually, what you are telling us is that the two reasons are (1) lack of interchangeable lenses and (2) doesn't come in black. Anyway I give the Leica X1 a chance to proof that it's pictures have a far better quality than the GF1. I waited years to find a good, small camera for traveling. I can lug around my heavy Nikon DSLR gear for another year. Until then I'm sure there will be a large number of high quality pocket cameras to choose from... or I can get a M8 with a Voigtländer 2/28mm for today's price of the X1 plus optical finder I gave up on 4/3 before the u4/3 came out. I only use my Nikon DLSRs for work stuff or very specific projects...Never carry them for travel or personal photography. I suggest you just get the M8, though you might want to consider the older C/V 28mm f/1.9 if you can find one. ---- A good deal of the grousing about the X1 appears to come from (1) people who do not own cameras actually manufactured (or assembled) by Leica and (2) people who aren't in the target audience. I get a real kick out of the people who puff up and proclaim that one thing or another is a "deal breaker". What? Like they went down to the store, had their plastic on the counter, and discovered (just in the nick of time) some unacceptable feature? What a bunch of poseurs. Some folks are just making a decision not to buy (which is just fine) -- but in that case, why all the mumbling about pancakes vs. rising cakes, where the aperture control is, the offset screws, viewfinders, etc. Just say no. In some cases this is like going to the auto showroom and ticking off all the faults of a minivan, and then proceeding to buy the pickup truck you were shopping for in the first place. People!! The X1... 1. It is what it is! 2. Worry about the X2. Or X3. 3. If you don't "get it" with the X1, it wasn't being marketed towards you in the first place. 4. There are no "deal breakers" because there are no deals yet. Pure puffery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted September 20, 2009 Share #26 Posted September 20, 2009 Am I the only one wandering what engineering problems are delaying the availability of this camera? It seems strange in light of a confusing announcement that made it sound like it would be available in October, then December and then..? There must be some technical issues that are turning out to be harder to solve than first envisioned. Based on the few threads I have seen from anyone that actually has had one to try it appears to be speed related. Is it focusing speed, write speed or IQ, especially at high ISO? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceflynn Posted September 20, 2009 Share #27 Posted September 20, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The engineers are waiting for us to finish redesigning the camera. :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveleo Posted September 20, 2009 Share #28 Posted September 20, 2009 The engineers are waiting for us to finish redesigning the camera. :-) yes .... your humorous sarcasm is well stated. i speculate that most certainly L is waiting for my personal and final "blessing" of the production units.....but i just can't make up my mind as to the optional colors. so it's really not the engineering problems causing the delay ..... it's me..... or us ..... or maybe there's other stuff scheduled for the production resources ..... or ..... ? ? ? patience ..... patience .... patience .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceflynn Posted September 20, 2009 Share #29 Posted September 20, 2009 Have you considered asking for perlage? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meatboy Posted September 21, 2009 Share #30 Posted September 21, 2009 People!! The X1... 1. It is what it is! 2. Worry about the X2. Or X3. 3. If you don't "get it" with the X1, it wasn't being marketed towards you in the first place. 4. There are no "deal breakers" because there are no deals yet. Pure puffery. Thanks ljclark, I could not have said it better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenor1 Posted September 21, 2009 Share #31 Posted September 21, 2009 The X1 sounds like the perfect camera for me. I have always preferred a fixed lens and the larger sensor makes it even better. I've never used manual focus so using the viewfinder works perfectly for me. I've been happy with the DL4 but this should do better in church settings, which is most of my shooting. The M8 size is too large for my use. I had a Leica-mini film camera years ago and liked the pictures more than the Zx model that replaced it. I felt the fixed lenses provided a sharper image between those two cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherub Posted September 21, 2009 Share #32 Posted September 21, 2009 People!! The X1... 1. It is what it is! Haha ! Finally ... Why speculate ?... Perfect camera to me also. Wait it ... Patience ! ... RESPECT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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