Seeingeye Posted September 11, 2009 Share #1 Posted September 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Does anyone know how the M9 handles the WATE? I tried this combination at a store today, but on auto detect it seemed to default to the 16 mm setting for all focal lengths when checking the info on playback. This seemed strange given that all three focal lengths are available for manual selection. Pressing info with the camera in record mode did not highlight what was set either. The staff at the store said the camera functions differently to the M8 and can detect the different focal lengths automatically, but none of us could see any evidence of this on the camera displays. Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 Hi Seeingeye, Take a look here M9 and WATE. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ho_co Posted September 11, 2009 Share #2 Posted September 11, 2009 Mike-- The different focal lengths of the WATE cannot be detected. (The earlier 28-35-50 Tri-Elmar used a mechanical linkage missing on the WATE.) When set to auto detection, the M9 recognizes via 6-bit code that WATE is attached and enters Exif data saying that it's an 18mm lens. There's no need for the M9 to recognize its different focal lengths since they all take the same correction. As you're aware, the UV/IR-Cut filter is the reason the M8 needed to know which focal length was set. The ability to enter the focal length manually is a convenience for the user. (I don't have and haven't seen the M9, but am regurgitating data from various reviews, esp David Farkas'.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted September 11, 2009 Share #3 Posted September 11, 2009 Does anyone know how the M9 handles the WATE? ... The staff at the store said the camera functions differently to the M8 and can detect the different focal lengths automatically, but none of us could see any evidence of this on the camera displays. The store is certainly wrong on this. The WATE can't signal its focal length, but has to ask you. In the default M9 behavior, the firmware corrections are the same for all three focal length settings, so it doesn't ask anymore. The M8 behaved the same way in "lens detect - ON" mode, which applied when there was no IR filter in front. In that case, the assumption was that the WATE was an 18mm focal length. I'm not sure what defaults apply for the M9 (it's certainly in the manual, tho) or what sticks if you use manual entry to change it. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeingeye Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted September 11, 2009 Thanks to Scott and Howard, especially the latter's prompt to look in the manual which states: "When using the LEICA TRI-ELMAR-M 16-18-21mm ASPH. f/4, the set focal length is not transferred to the camera and therefore is not included in the EXIF data for the pictures. However, you can enter the relevant focal length manually if you wish." I understand that without the need for UV/IR correction knowing the focal length is less important when using the M9, but it would still be useful to have this info in the EXIF data. Can't have everything, I suppose. Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 11, 2009 Share #5 Posted September 11, 2009 Mike-- The original Tri-Elmar ("MATE") covered three standard focal lengths that had finder frames, so it got the linkage needed to bring up the proper frame lines. That linkage is typical of Leica, carefully planned and beautifully made, but clearly expensive to build. The lens appeared well before the M8, and had to be compatible with all the M cameras ever made. (Take a look at a MATE if you get a chance, and look at its complexity. Note particularly that the 35mm setting is on one side of the 50mm position, and the 28mm setting on the other--an incredibly complicated lens to design and build, and a perfect example of what Leica is all about IMHO.) The WATE came out at the same time as the M8, as a substitute for the fields of view of 28mm, 24mm and 21mm that were lost on the smaller sensor. Since those focal lengths all require external finders, the lens doesn't include a linkage to tell the camera how it's set. Since its vignetting is the same at all three focal lengths, Leica figured that a single setting for the M8 would be adequate. Then all hell broke loose with the discovery of the M8's sensitivity to IR. But thanks to good design, a firmware update gave the M8 proper correction instructions to compensate for the differences in red absorption toward the corners that the IR Cut filters caused at varying focal lengths. You're probably aware of all that, and it doesn't respond to your point anyway. The WATE can't communicate to the camera its actual setting because: 1) there is no electronic data transfer available between M lenses and bodies; and 2) installing a mechanical linkage would have been extremely expensive, and would have been of benefit solely in updating the exif data. I agree that it would be nice to have the focal length in the exif data, but I think I can see that it ain't gonna happen! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted September 11, 2009 Share #6 Posted September 11, 2009 Mike-- I agree that it would be nice to have the focal length in the exif data, but I think I can see that it ain't gonna happen! That test was on my list to try at the roll out at my dealer, however the line to too long to get that far. On the other hand, in the manual setting you can select each focal length separately. I just wish I had tested it in auto. Mine should show up next week... If there is any uncertainty by then I will let you know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeingeye Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted September 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Howard Thanks for your very full and clear explanation. I can see that that there are very good reasons that it is not possible to record details of the focal length automatically. It's one of the compromises in adapting a 55 year old design to the modern age, I guess. It never ceases to amaze me just how much knowledge there is here on this forum and how helpful people are. I've had a response about a camera launched a mere two days ago and all in double quick time! Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 11, 2009 Share #8 Posted September 11, 2009 Yeah, Mike--but we're all wrong! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 11, 2009 Share #9 Posted September 11, 2009 That test was on my list to try at the roll out at my dealer, however the line to too long to get that far. On the other hand, in the manual setting you can select each focal length separately. I just wish I had tested it in auto. Mine should show up next week... If there is any uncertainty by then I will let you know. Check out the review at David Farkas Photography Blog: Leica M9 Review: Shooting in Wetzlar, Germany. I think that's where I saw the comments on how the camera handles the lenses when after one is manually set. Damn, I envy you guys who have one of these on the way! Congratulations, and keep us posted! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted September 11, 2009 Share #10 Posted September 11, 2009 Check out the review at David Farkas Photography Blog: Leica M9 Review: Shooting in Wetzlar, Germany. I think that's where I saw the comments on how the camera handles the lenses when after one is manually set. Yes, I read that... But, I would like hands on experience first. If that is true, I would rather (for the WATE and WATE alone) go back to the method used on the M8. It detects the lens, gives me a menu, I select and go... If ignored then use the preset. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeingeye Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted September 11, 2009 Check out the review at David Farkas Photography Blog: Leica M9 Review: Shooting in Wetzlar, Germany. I think that's where I saw the comments on how the camera handles the lenses when after one is manually set. David Farkas' blog states that the setting for the WATE defaults to 18 mm, although today I observed the camera stating the focal length as 16 mm. I suspect that there has been a firmware change, but the switch is sensible as this prevents any confusion with Leica's 18 and 21 primes. If the EXIF data states the focal length as 16 mm, the image can only have been shot with the WATE. Speaking of firmware changes, there was talk today of an update fairly soon that could bring other enhancements. Sorry, no other details I'm afraid. Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 12, 2009 Share #12 Posted September 12, 2009 I've messed up so often with the M8, WATE and Universal Finder, that the M9's procedure looks like an improvement. Still, David's review indicates there's still some room for improvement there. I guess we'll see when you guys get your new cameras! And as you said, Mike, there will doubtless be some firmware tweaks over the next few months. I'm really sorry they didn't include an "M8 emulation" mode (Lens ID On + UV/IR). Harder to use both cameras if I must use filters for one and can't for the other. OTOH, the only reason I'm thinking that way is that they've convinced me I need an M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeingeye Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #13 Posted September 14, 2009 The Leica store got back to me to confirm what we already knew about the WATE's focal lengths not being automatically detected. They were very prompt - good service on their part. I like the idea of amending the firmware so that the user is given the choice of setting the focal length automatically, rather than having to delve around in the menu and it could apply to non coded lenses as well. Perhaps there could also be an override so that the setting is automatically reset if a coded lens is subsequently put on the camera. It is very easy to forget to change the settings in the heat of the moment. Maybe the behaviour could be made configurable so that it only occurred if the user wants it. There are a number of options to improve this aspect of the camera, although the manual selection is already a solid enhancement. I had to go back to the store today and they promised to feed the suggestion back to HQ. Who knows, something might come of it. Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michali Posted September 14, 2009 Share #14 Posted September 14, 2009 David Farkas' blog states that the setting for the WATE defaults to 18 mm, although today I observed the camera stating the focal length as 16 mm. I suspect that there has been a firmware change, but the switch is sensible as this prevents any confusion with Leica's 18 and 21 primes. If the EXIF data states the focal length as 16 mm, the image can only have been shot with the WATE. Speaking of firmware changes, there was talk today of an update fairly soon that could bring other enhancements. Sorry, no other details I'm afraid. Regards Mike I picked up my M9 on Saturday and one of the first lenses I tried with it was the WATE. I had also read David's report that the setting defaults to 18mm, however I found that 16mm is what's actually recorded in the EXIF. My M9 is running on firmware 1.002 which as far as i know is the latest; I agree they must have changed it to avoid confusion with the 18mm prime. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michali Posted September 14, 2009 Share #15 Posted September 14, 2009 Here's a screen shot of from PSE6 shows 16mm. Pic taken with WATE @ 18mm. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96374-m9-and-wate/?do=findComment&comment=1035193'>More sharing options...
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