Just how did Leica get the 28mm FL in the M9

[Shootist]

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This is a question I have not yet seen in this forum and I'd like to know how they did it and maintain the x.68 magnification.

 

I know some of you don't think it was a big deal (because they had 24mm FL's in the M8 but what those who think this forget is the 24mm FL's in the M8 are cropped and only equal a 32mm lens).

 

Since the M9 is the same thickness as the M8 they must of redesigned the RF in some way.

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[patrick parker]

Good one.

[georg]

When the M8 was introduced, I was told it is a mechanical issue of the framelines themselves. 21 + 24 are closer than 28 + 35 and the breakthroughs so close to each other would cause trouble.

[Shootist]

When the M8 was introduced, I was told it is a mechanical issue of the framelines themselves. 21 + 24 are closer than 28 + 35 and the breakthroughs so close to each other would cause trouble.

 

So what you are saying is Leica could of put 21mm FL's, equal to a 28mm lens, in the M8 but it would of caused problems.

 

Well I disagree with that as many have said in the M8 forum, and I know form personal experience, the whole/total viewfinder, and I do mean the total/whole viewfinder, of the M8 does not cover what a 21mm lens, equal to a 28mm lens on FF, captures.

 

So that's not it.

[Mauribix]

My guess is that the VF is exactly the same, just because now the FOV is no longer an equiv. FOV, and the 24mm frame of the M8 is the nearest to the 28mm fram of the M9.

So, and that's just my personal opinion, the slightly resized the M8's 24mm frame as to make it coincide with the M9's 28mm one.

 

Is it possible?

 

Probably making a 24mm frame available on the M9 would have implied a redesign of the VF.IMHO

[UliWer]

Frames for 28mm have been in Film-Ms with a 0.72 viewfinder. So in the M9-body which is thicker than the traditional M and need a lower magnification for the same results 28mm frames should be as well possible in a 0.68-viewfinder.

 

This answers your question in the threadtitle, but not why it was not possible to add 21mm frames in the M8.

[Shootist]

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No all replies so for had/have been covered in a thread in the M8 forum.

Since the tunnel length of the viewfinder in the M8 and M9 cameras are longer then what they are in the M film cameras the magnification had to be dropped from the standard x.72 to the current x.68 to get at least the 24mm FL's, which is equal to a 32mm lens on FF, in the M8 and that you could NOT get 21mm FL's, equal to a 28mm lens on FF, to fit inside the viewfinder.

 

So how did Leica adjust the view/rangefinder in the M9 to FIT the FF 28mm FL's inside the viewfinder with some, a little, room to spare.

[adan]

With difficulty.

 

I've looked through the M9 finder - the 28 lines are very hard to see even without glasses, and I think users will find out they are pretty rough approximations at that (a lot more in the picture than in the framelines, even though the other frames are better than the M8).

 

Bear in mind that the framelines are just slits in a mask - Leica can put them anywhere they like and call them "28" framelines. They are wider than the "32mm" framelines designed for a 24 on the M8 - and harder to see. Not really visible at all with glasses on.

 

Do not go by Leica's or dpreview's "illustrations" of how the finder looks - which shows lots of image outside the widest lines. Look through a camera for yourself.

[bybrett]

With difficulty.

 

I've looked through the M9 finder - the 28 lines are very hard to see even without glasses, and I think users will find out they are pretty rough approximations at that (a lot more in the picture than in the framelines, even though the other frames are better than the M8).

 

Bear in mind that the framelines are just slits in a mask - Leica can put them anywhere they like and call them "28" framelines. They are wider than the "32mm" framelines designed for a 24 on the M8 - and harder to see. Not really visible at all with glasses on.

 

Do not go by Leica's or dpreview's "illustrations" of how the finder looks - which shows lots of image outside the widest lines. Look through a camera for yourself.

 

Are the 28mm frame lines as "accurate" as the rest...?

[Shootist]

With difficulty.

 

I've looked through the M9 finder - the 28 lines are very hard to see even without glasses, and I think users will find out they are pretty rough approximations at that (a lot more in the picture than in the framelines, even though the other frames are better than the M8).

 

Bear in mind that the framelines are just slits in a mask - Leica can put them anywhere they like and call them "28" framelines. They are wider than the "32mm" framelines designed for a 24 on the M8 - and harder to see. Not really visible at all with glasses on.

 

Do not go by Leica's or dpreview's "illustrations" of how the finder looks - which shows lots of image outside the widest lines. Look through a camera for yourself.

 

Thanks Andy. That's what I was looking for. In the manual or the brochure the picture showing the 28mm framelines look like there is a ton of room outside of them.

 

It would be nice to hear from users that have both the M8/.2 and a M9 to see what the 28mm lens actually covers on the M9 compared to what the framelines show and how they correspond to the 24mm framelines in the M8.

[adan]

Well, it's interesting. Leica had .72x viewfinders through 4 models (M2, M4, M5, M4-2) before they squeezed a 28 frame into the same "window" in the M4-P (and nudged the 35 lines inward to make room). For economic reasons, the first Leica M I really owned was an M2 (without 28 lines) and a 28 lens, and I just used the whole finder (of course you lose parallax correction that way). Coincidentally about 6 months before the M4-P was released.

 

With my glasses on, the M9 looks about like that M2's did, so the fact that the lines are not fully visible is probably not a problem for 28 use.

 

Brett: for whatever reason, I just didn't try the M9 with a 28, so can't speak to the accuracy from expereince. I sort of suspect that since they are bumping up against a wall, so to speak, that they may include less than the final picture, by more than the other lines. We'll have to see.

[henning]

So what you are saying is Leica could of put 21mm FL's, equal to a 28mm lens, in the M8 but it would of caused problems.

 

Well I disagree with that as many have said in the M8 forum, and I know form personal experience, the whole/total viewfinder, and I do mean the total/whole viewfinder, of the M8 does not cover what a 21mm lens, equal to a 28mm lens on FF, captures.

 

So that's not it.

 

The M4-P/6/7 all had 28mm framelines in the 0.72 mag finder. Putting the 28mm framelines in a 0.68 mag finder is easier. I looked in the M8 finder again; putting 21mm framelines (28mm equiv.) would have been possible, but just as 28mm frames in the M9 the 21mm frames in the M8 would have been useless for anyone with glasses. Since there are no Leica lenses between 28 and 35 no intermediate lines make sense; on the M8 there are the 24 framelines which are useful and not too hard to see, so it seems reasonable that they were included.

 

Henning

[ChrisC]

Andy - And others, I was very surprised that Leica reverted to the closest focus setting of the M9 framelines.

 

...... the M9 finder - the 28 lines are very hard to see.....

 

I've been wondering if the decision to include a 28 mm frameline led necessarily to the closest focus settings? Any thoughts.

 

............ Chris

[Shootist]

Andy - And others, I was very surprised that Leica reverted to the closest focus setting of the M9 framelines.

 

 

 

I've been wondering if the decision to include a 28 mm frameline led necessarily to the closest focus settings? Any thoughts.

 

............ Chris

 

1 meter is not the closest focusing distance of the rangefinder and most of the modern lenses. 0.7 meters is. The only modern lenses that focus at 1 meter is the 90 & 135mm lenses, IIRC.

 

I would really like someone with a M9 to post a image using a 28mm lens and referrence where the framelines are compared to what was captured.

[ChrisC]

1 meter is not the closest focusing distance...

 

Ed - Silly me, thanks for the correcting my inattentive post.

 

................ Chris

[guidomo]

My guess would be they are more like 30mm framelines but Leica sells them as "28". In other words, with a 28mm lens you'll get some more than the framelines would make you think. Or, in yet other words, Leica simply slimmed the framelines to fit them into the finder.