Leica M9 and IR - should we keep our filters?

[wmspa]

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Just two pictures I shot today with and without IR filter (ISO 1000, 1/8th second, so pretty dark, -1 stop, halogen light). RAW processed in Apple Aperture, but no post-processing, except white balance adjustment by clicking at the grey blanket. Just look at the liner of the jacket. I did the same test three years ago and the entire jacket was magenta, same for the carpet in the background. This is quite a torture test, so Leica did a pretty good job, but not an absolutely perfect one (just as they say in the Q+A document). I would continue to use IR filters at black-tie events, etc. (no problem for me, actually).

 

Regards

 

Wolfgang

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[markowich]

Just two pictures I shot today with and without IR filter (ISO 1000, 1/8th second, so pretty dark, -1 stop, halogen light). RAW processed in Apple Aperture, but no post-processing, except white balance adjustment by clicking at the grey blanket. Just look at the liner of the jacket. I did the same test three years ago and the entire jacket was magenta, same for the carpet in the background. This is quite a torture test, so Leica did a pretty good job, but not an absolutely perfect one (just as they say in the Q+A document). I would continue to use IR filters at black-tie events, etc. (no problem for me, actually).

 

Regards

 

Wolfgang

 

interesting comparism. one of those cases which according to michael reichmann does not exist, to all intents and purposes (cit)---))))) peter

[sandymc]

Ummmm. Issue - if we keep filters on our wide angle lens there will be uncorrected cyan drift, even with coded lenses. I see a catch-22 here.

 

Sandy

[pascal_meheut]

interesting comparism. one of those cases which according to michael reichmann does not exist, to all intents and purposes (cit)---))))) peter

 

Yes, like for the M8. It took me 5 minutes to see the problem and Sean Reid as a whole section about it.

It is not that bad actually but it is better to know it can occur sometimes.

[Marty]

Ummmm. Issue - if we keep filters on our wide angle lens there will be uncorrected cyan drift, even with coded lenses. I see a catch-22 here.

This is what it's like on my M8. The SE 18 gives me either cyan corners with filter or magenta casts without. Sometimes even magenta corners. And different results again depending on the menu setting.

 

dpreview now have a new page up comparing IR sensitivity of M8, M9 and some DSLRs. I must agree with their conclusion, even after seeing Wolfgang's samples, that the problem is to all intents and purposes fixed, or at least on a par with the rest.

[doug_m]

Today I reviewed some M9 and 24 mm lux shots with and without the IR/UV filters and could not tell any difference on the LCD screen. This was a pretty crude assessment but its what I saw nonetheless. Does anyone know how big of an issue it is- in practice not theory- to leave the IR/UV filter on when using a 24 lux and M9?

[sabahan]

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I likeM 8 able to capture IR ray from outside sceen which I can convert using software to look like the kodak HIE film effect,no other camera in the market can let me do this,can I request the filter of my new M9 to fit with the same filter as the M8?

[tom0511]

Leica could add a correction mode into the M9 which allows us to use IR filters.

Would also help those people who like switching lenses back and forth between M8 and M9

[egibaud]

Adding the possibility to use IR filter always may be a good solution.

Imagine a wedding with many black fabrics... and you need wide angle???

 

A second set of correction could be available and if IR Filter is selected then applied.

[sean_reid]

Adding the possibility to use IR filter always may be a good solution.

Imagine a wedding with many black fabrics... and you need wide angle???

 

A second set of correction could be available and if IR Filter is selected then applied.

 

I shot a wedding last weekend with the M9 and a 28. The IR shift exists, which (as Pascal mentioned) I tested and document in detail in my review, but it wasn't a problem for that shoot (also as reported in that review).

 

I've noted some of your comments about my past work so I imagine you haven't read this review or seen the samples. Perhaps you'll be able to get them, eventually, through another source. I'm not aware of them existing in any other review yet but maybe I missed one that does include that testing.

[chris_tribble]

One of the comments I've heard from a tester is that the magenta is easy to remove. A quick attempt in LR using the Hue slider - if this is consistent for a particular colour temperature light source + specific fabric, it will be easy to batch out.

 

Easier than trying to deal with cyan drift in corners.

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[sean_reid]

One of the comments I've heard from a tester is that the magenta is easy to remove. A quick attempt in LR using the Hue slider - if this is consistent for a particular colour temperature light source + specific fabric, it will be easy to batch out.

 

Easier than trying to deal with cyan drift in corners.

 

Hi Chris,

 

But, as always, the trick is doing that without also removing legitimate magenta. By definition, one can't profile out IR but maybe Jaime or someone else will get us close enough to deal with the slight IR.

 

The truth is that I kind of like the mild IR color shifts I sometimes see from the M9. They're small enough that I tend to find them attractive rather than problematic. But that is highly subjective.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[okram]

The good thing would be not to make an issue out of it in the way only Internet, as a medium, can. Especially forums.

This amount of magenta shift is negligible- even more- it seems to open shadows a bit- in a good way.

I also agree with Sean- subjectively speaking, I like the unfiltered ones better.

[D&A]

Sean,

 

The preference in some cases (certainly not specifically in formal Black tie wear) to prefering a bit of IR contamination rather than totally filtering it out I feel may be a bit analogous to most being more drawn to a picture with a bit of warmth, than a "cold" one. Although a slight magenta cast is ceartainly different than the traditional image "warmth" we all generally refer to...slight magenta contamination has the possibilty to change other hues to a slightly more pleasing color too (as long as it's "slight")

[manolo]

I agree with sean that I like the ir contamination in most of my Images in my M8. The only problem sometimes is on white-red skins and in those cases I just converted to B&W.

[egibaud]

I shot a wedding last weekend with the M9 and a 28. The IR shift exists, which (as Pascal mentioned) I tested and document in detail in my review, but it wasn't a problem for that shoot (also as reported in that review).

 

I've noted some of your comments about my past work so I imagine you haven't read this review or seen the samples. Perhaps you'll be able to get them, eventually, through another source. I'm not aware of them existing in any other review yet but maybe I missed one that does include that testing.

 

Hi Sean, I started to read yesterday but I had to rush out. I'll read carefully in details this weekend.

 

Thanks

[egibaud]

The good thing would be not to make an issue out of it in the way only Internet, as a medium, can. Especially forums.

This amount of magenta shift is negligible- even more- it seems to open shadows a bit- in a good way.

I also agree with Sean- subjectively speaking, I like the unfiltered ones better.

 

That's right. We can admit that it is far better controlled than the M8 without filter, no doubt about it. I can also imagine that a Lightroom Preset could be created so red shift can be easily removed.

I am still recovering from my first M8 shooting at a bapthism... nice purple suit for the kid's father... :-(

 

I still think a "dual" correction could be achieved via menu option with or without IR filter, specially because Leica engeneer know how to deal with it and second for people shooting both M8 and M9, they could leave the filters on all the time.

[sean_reid]

Sean,

 

The preference in some cases (certainly not specifically in formal Black tie wear) to prefering a bit of IR contamination rather than totally filtering it out I feel may be a bit analogous to most being more drawn to a picture with a bit of warmth, than a "cold" one. Although a slight magenta cast is ceartainly different than the traditional image "warmth" we all generally refer to...slight magenta contamination has the possibilty to change other hues to a slightly more pleasing color too (as long as it's "slight")

 

Exactly my feeling.

[adan]

I think the key talking point here is not "Does the M9 still benefit from some additional IR filtering?", but "Is it any different in IR sensitivity than a top-end Canon or Nikon?"

 

dpreview did that test, and said "No!".

 

All silicon-based cameras have some residual IR sensitivity. My JVC 3-CCD video camera, which generally produces beautiful color overall, turns up "purple" in black t-shirts and blue Spandex all the time - especially in warm late-afternoon light.

 

Check the profile being used - I regularly use a shadow tint shift of 2-5 points green on the profiles I build in Camera Raw with a Gretag colorchecker.

 

<rant>Magenta has been the curse of all color photography at least since 1980, since it helps produce skin tones that the "public" likes. Nikkors are magenta, Canon EOS lenses are magenta (compared to their FD predecesors), Solms lenses are more magenta than Midland (talking place of design, not place of manufacture) and Zeiss 35 lenes are more red than Solms. Epson printers bias to magenta. Most monitors bias towards blue-magenta.</rant>

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[sean_reid]

I think the key talking point here is not "Does the M9 still benefit from some additional IR filtering?", but "Is it any different in IR sensitivity than a top-end Canon or Nikon?"

 

dpreview did that test, and said "No!".

 

That is not consistent with the results I've seen when testing this. There is indeed a difference between the IR sensitivity of the M9 and a Canon 5D Mk II. It is especially apparent under tungsten.

 

Leica's own testing results are in line with what my tests showed as well so I'm not sure what DPReview did differently. It looks like they may not yet have tested under tungsten.

 

I'm guessing you haven't seen the tests that were part of my initial review. There is a difference but it primarily might be of consequence to people doing color critical work under tungsten.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean