dasper Posted September 11, 2009 Share #61 Posted September 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ok, everyone who is proclaiming that the camera must be made primarily in Germany because they believe in Leica's integrity, truth in marketing, the value of $2,000, etc, etc is wrong. The German laws for making this claim are much less strict than US laws. My M6TTLs were essentially made in Portugal then shipped to Germany where the final rangefinder adjustment was done and the top plates were screwed on. Obviously the M6TTLs said made in Germany. Considering Leica knows quite a bit more about mechanical M series camera construction than compact digital camera construction, I wouldn't expect too much of the X1 to actually be made in Germany. But what does it matter? Japanese companies make fine electronics, fine automobiles, etc. While the industrial design is usually not as stately as German engineered products, if the camera's interface, looks and features are designed by a German company and the manufacturing is sourced out to a Japanese company, what's the problem? Obviously Leica is going to do a small percentage of the final assembly to be able to write "Made in Germany" on the camera or else half you whiners apparently wouldn't want to buy one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 Hi dasper, Take a look here Where is X1 made?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ho_co Posted September 11, 2009 Share #62 Posted September 11, 2009 At the top of every page there's a big red button eith 09/09/09 on it Click on it and all the info and all the photographs of the new kit are there. I assumed that everyone had read all that Oh, that's a button? Fancy that! Leica Camera AG, Solms, presents a new generation of Leica digital cameras ‘Made in Germany’ – the LEICA X1. The LEICA X1 is equipped with a CMOS sensor in APS-C format, just like those used in semi-professional DSLR cameras. Leica's script, lifted from the microsite. Interesting, their use of inverted commas....I'm pretty sure that most of this camera is produced elsewhere, components shipped to Germany where they fit it together and package it. This would also lead me to think that the lens is made by Panasonic - the lens barrel assembly is very similar to the Dlux. Agreed, James, except for the last paragraph. It may not come from Solms, but a fixed-focus 24mm made to cover APS-C wouldn't fit the standard mass-market muster. Unless it appears on another camera, and probably even then, it will be a Leica design. Whatever its origin, IMHO it will be no less a Leica lens than those made in Canada. I think it's more likely that the body will come from Japan (but not Panasonic, someone said)--and the lens (wherever it's made) added in Germany. This is wonderful. We've seen a demo and a video, we've read the book and whipped ourselves into a frenzy over its country of origin, and it isn't even supposed to ship for another two months. I love it! We weird Leica users are curious about all details. Although I didn't want one at first, the more of these speculations I read, the more I think, "Well, yes, I can see a use for it." I gotta get off this forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 11, 2009 Share #63 Posted September 11, 2009 dasper-- Welcome aboard! And with an excellent first post. I couldn't agree more. Portugal, Canada, Japan, Germany, it makes no difference so long as it's got that red dot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted September 11, 2009 Share #64 Posted September 11, 2009 My R3 is from Portugal, my Summicrons are both from Canada, the Clux is from Japan........it's not an issue in the sense of 'will it be any good' as far as I'm concerned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 11, 2009 Share #65 Posted September 11, 2009 Sean, did you write that? If so, presumably to write a review you have have handled a production camera? What did it say on the bottom plate? I wrote a "First Impressions" article about a pre-production camera and I don't recall ever looking at the bottom plate. Myself, Michael Reichman, Phil Askey, Andy Westlake and David Farkas were introduced to a few samples of the preproduction cameras in Solms. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabbott4 Posted September 12, 2009 Share #66 Posted September 12, 2009 It's obvious the subtext of this discussion is really about the perception of manufacturing excellence vs. manufacturing excellence itself. Prior to the advent of Toyota's Lexus brand, the conventional wisdom regarding luxury brand autos was that German manufacturing excellence could not be surpassed. A decade of declining market share to the Japanese told a different story, although many die-hard Mercedes loyalists continued to buy M-B because of their perception of German build quality. During the 90's, Porsche, another recognized leader in build-quality, nearly went out of business because of manufacturing inefficiences and sought Japanese manufacturing expertise to help rescue the company. Yet during the years that challenged these companies, how many unsuspecting people bought their product with the certainty that they had bought the best? No one, by virtue of their national identity, has a lock on good manufacturing processes. Manufacturing expertise is largely a function of money invested and good manufacturing practices. What we rely on is that Leica values their manufacturing heritage as much as we do. That a product is "Made in Germany" means less to me than the implicit promise that wherever it is made, it is of the quality that befits the Leica name. I suspect my personal payoff will be the day I decide to sell my Leica product and point to the "Made in Germany" as "proof" of its quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Mitchum Posted September 12, 2009 Share #67 Posted September 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I wrote a "First Impressions" article about a pre-production camera and I don't recall ever looking at the bottom plate. Myself, Michael Reichman, Phil Askey, Andy Westlake and David Farkas were introduced to a few samples of the preproduction cameras in Solms. Cheers, Sean They just say "sample" on the bottom. They won't say where there made until they go into production. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted September 12, 2009 Share #68 Posted September 12, 2009 "My M6TTLs were essentially made in Portugal then shipped to Germany where the final rangefinder adjustment was done and the top plates were screwed on." Again, Portugal sub-assembles certain parts and manufactures some components (mostly with the old machines from Wetzlar) but most parts are now made by suppliers (many of them were once part of the Leitz-company) in Germany. The Ms for example have HSC-machined brass top/bottom plates from Clößner and they alone will cost a lot... Have you ever tried to employ a "Zerspanungstechniker" who can handle those HSC-machining well in Portugal? China? Eastern Europe? Well, that might be difficult, because this education only exists in Germany (and some other high-wage countries like Switzerland or Denmark) - even companies from the States (I think the military industry educates some of their people) or Japan usually use workers who are just trained for weeks! Do you know how expensive it is to make such a delicate HSC-machined part in those countries? The heritage (if we're really talking about economic value, not just assembly) tells you more about the quality of a product then every amateur test, crude reliability statistics or marketing-claims - it's one of the few things a customer can know and is hardly to manipulate. Germany has a different philosophy, different infrastructure, regulations, educational system (nearly all people in Solms are trained for several years, some of those educations are comparable to a bachelor degree - these are people in production, they KNOW what they're doing and why!). Japan is not a low-labour-country (it's a common myth that Japan evolved only decades ago - in fact, industrilisation began in the 19th century - just like in Germany) and have great respect for their achievements but "Made in Germany" still means something different, especially in these industries. The lenses made in Solms are a good example and I hope we have one of these in the X1. And I also hope for high-quality mechanics (lens barrel, AF) and no plastic-consumer-crap... A few months ago the super-clever managers ina friends company ordered chinese parts (of course the supplier fullfils the ISO9001) they needed to take part nr. 28 out of the box to find one that works to our specifications! Of course the purchase departmen will order those parts again because it's the only way to reduce THEIR costs every year... THIS is our business-reality while the company who deliverd high-quality-parts (Made in Germany, only a few km away with shipping time of hours instead of weeks) usually delivered less then 0,1% bad parts! Those companies die, because of this management-bs, shareholder-value...! And I hope that Leica will give us the chance to keep this expensive, unconvenient way of treating and educating people, fullfilling high-standards regarding safety and environmental protection and manufacturing efficiently beyond the principles of early industrialism (putting 1000 people at a work bench) also in the camera-industry - not only on mars... Panasonic starts to offshore production to China again, just years after they found out their Japanese fabs are more efficient!? @gabbott4 I'm from this industry and I have seen what this management-bs caused. The reason was the shareholder-value-principle. They had to cut costs and rise profits after making solid business over the last 100 years (reinvesting the money you earn, let the engineers make engineering decisions and marketing stays marketing, investing into your staff...) and the "Lean Production" was a convenient way to cut costs in production. Established suppliers were crushed, own production was outsourced, R&D-resources were cut, quality no longer was inherent part of design and manufacturing, it became a number in statistics... More and more QC-teams and auditing but less skilled craftsmen who actually could achieve inherent quality! Of course there was constant improvement, seeking for efficient design and short ways, we also had teams but they were called "Gruppen"... We had the so called box-assembly, skilled craftsmen assemble the cars over sever min/h and then a robot takes it to the next assembly stage. It was all thrown away by "ape-production"! Skilled craftsmen with several years of education now work on the old assembly line again doing the same work every few seconds (gladly they rotate) - this system was introduced to employ untrained workers - but managers didn't care, McKinsey said it has to be done this way, so they did! It all reads very well in theory but when you have seen it with your own eyes, it makes you cringe! Today even reliability reports say that the S-Class is pretty much the best/sophisticated car in the world. It's a good car, but all this management-bs caused unnecessary steps backward, about 10% of the parts are cheap crap (mostly from "global sourcing") and it's much closer to a Lexus because they were forced by the managers to apply very much the same standards (only a few of them are still unique like safety beyond common testing methods) - the older (-1998) model nearly entirely made without those principles is superior keeping it's age in mind but no customer report or statistic told you that, people found out after several years on the streets... And by the way, they made profit with those models and let me tell you, their technology was decades ahead of others. Do you know what the old Mercedes supplier of seatbelts does today? No, they're not interested in selling to the automotive industry with "Lean Production" anymore, they couldn't compete with prices of Polish und Hungarian systems (used today, make lots of problems - Toyota uses the same on European models and Chinese on their Japanese cars) anyway. They make the seatbelt-system for the Eurofighter! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabbott4 Posted September 12, 2009 Share #69 Posted September 12, 2009 Georg- I was one who purchased a 2000 model year S Class and I believe it was one of the first casualties of the cost cutting you described. In absolute terms, it was a step forward technologically, but relative to it's predessor, not as robustly built. More plastic. Still double paned windows, but thinner. Things like that. I still own the car, yet am fairly convinced it does not have the potential of say, the '94 S Class to achieve classic car status in another 15-20 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 15, 2009 Share #70 Posted September 15, 2009 One item more to consider: 1) Generally agreed, I think, that's its a Sony sensor. 2) Generally agreed, I think, that it starts in Japan. Therefore: 3) Is there some Japanese company which is currently producing compacts that still require storing a JPG for each RAW image? The answer to that question might point us to the original builder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Mitchum Posted September 15, 2009 Share #71 Posted September 15, 2009 Nikon will be introducing their own version of it soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted September 15, 2009 Share #72 Posted September 15, 2009 Nikon will be introducing their own version of it soon. Leica: Nikon to announce APS-C-sized sensor compact? - Digital Cameras - Crave - CNET Asia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchs Posted September 15, 2009 Share #73 Posted September 15, 2009 Nikon will be introducing their own version of it soon. Let's hope it has an integrated optical VF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted September 15, 2009 Share #74 Posted September 15, 2009 At the top of every page there's a big red button eith 09/09/09 on it Click on it and all the info and all the photographs of the new kit are there. I assumed that everyone had read all that Assumed that people read that,,, That might be a bit of a stretch!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveleo Posted September 15, 2009 Share #75 Posted September 15, 2009 the "made in ...." label is absurd anymore..... has been for many many years..... laws all over the place with conflicting explanations of what it means ....and nothing as complex as a camera is evermore literally made in one country. the label should just say " made on Earth" (and that could be arguable) who cares? * the nameplate tells you who is responsible for the product. * move on to something important. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo-c Posted September 15, 2009 Share #76 Posted September 15, 2009 "Made in Germany", even with the well known limitations of meaning, is clearly engraved in the back. on the back it says Leica camera Germany, it does not say made in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 16, 2009 Share #77 Posted September 16, 2009 Good point! And welcome aboard the forum! Nonetheless, Leica Camera AG - Fotografie - X1 calls it "Eine echte Leica 'Made in Germany'." I think that's what the ruckus is about--is it or isn't it? In another thread (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-x1-forum/98698-x1-does-use-sony-cmos-more.html), Simon Dai says that a Japanese-language web page maintains that the camera will be labeled "Made in Germany," despite what the prototypes say. Definitely an interesting curiosity! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 16, 2009 Share #78 Posted September 16, 2009 In another thread (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-x1-forum/98698-x1-does-use-sony-cmos-more.html), Simon Dai says that a Japanese-language web page maintains that the camera will be labeled "Made in Germany," despite what the prototypes say. In fact, I've only quoted what Stefan Daniel has told the Japanese press, essentially he says the X1 is not 100% made in Germany, official production will kick off by the end of September, many of its parts are to be built in Japan or other Asian countries, the exterior body work will be done in Solms, Germany. The finished camera meets the legal requirement to be labelled as "Made In Germany". There is no sticker on the bottom plate of the demo cameras, only the "Leica Camera Germany" on its back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 16, 2009 Share #79 Posted September 16, 2009 And of course, that's the problem. The samples so far shown clearly don't say "Made in Germany." The point of your post in this regard is that the production cameras will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent whiting Posted September 16, 2009 Share #80 Posted September 16, 2009 In fact, I've only quoted what Stefan Daniel has told the Japanese press, essentially he says the X1 is not 100% made in Germany, official production will kick off by the end of September, many of its parts are to be built in Japan or other Asian countries, the exterior body work will be done in Solms, Germany. The finished camera meets the legal requirement to be labelled as "Made In Germany". There is no sticker on the bottom plate of the demo cameras, only the "Leica Camera Germany" on its back. as a side note --- look at the tripod hole it is not centered with the lens kman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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