Where is X1 made?

[georg]

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When "Made in Germany" is written on a product, final assembly in Germany wouldn't be sufficient (it would be "Assembled in"). As far as I understood it (although the Leica-Guy wasn't an engineer) the X1 is assembled in Solms and made by the same suppliers making the S2/M9. Only the sensor and propably the IS-module are from Japan - unlike M9/S2.

That would mean it has real Leica-optics!

[mjh]

There's really no comparison between these 2 ... LOL

 

With the Sony sensor coupled with a Leica quality lens, I'm expecting the outcome to beat the D90, D300 and cohorts easily.

As far as the autofocus is concerned – and you will have realized that it was the contrast detection AF I was talking about –, there isn’t a lot of difference, despite the different pixel size and basic sensor technology. As long as the sensor has a Bayer-type filter pattern and can be read out fast enough to support contrast detection, the AF algorithm wouldn’t care who’s feeding it.

 

Apart from that, the amount to which brand and technology of the sensor determines the eventual image quality is often exaggerated. While bigger pixels are generally better than smaller pixels, you can get both good and bad results from almost any sensor currently used in DSLRs and EVIL cameras, be it from Canon, Kodak, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony etc.. People are writing stuff like “It’s from Kodak” (implying this and that) or “It’s a CMOS sensor” (again implying one thing or another), but many of the supposedly typical properties of CCD vs. CMOS or Kodak vs. Canon (vs. Sony etc.) properly belong to the mythical realm. It makes me cringe when people suggest that CMOS sensors would be inherently less noisy than CCDs, for example, when it was their fixed-pattern noise that for a long time had prevented their use in DSLRs. Pixel pitch makes a difference, fill-factor makes a difference, (not) having an antialiasing filter makes a difference … but I don’t buy most “sensors from vendor X are generally superior to sensors from vendor Y” claims. The very same type of Sony sensor in a Nikon, Pentax, or Sony DSLR can produce markedly different images, for example.

 

But back to the original topic: Compare the description of the X1 autofocus to that of the FZ38 autofocus and tell me whether you can tell them apart. And I don’t assume Leica has been busily re-inventing face recognition at Solms so they could implement it in the X1. This stuff was surely invented elsewhere.

[efftee]

FT, I don't understand. To me, both thoughts are compatible: Basic assembly done in Japan, final assembly done at Solms.

 

Now you say that because of the price, you want to know more. I don't understand the question. The finished product is assembled and tested to Leica standards by Leica technicians in Germany.

 

It wouldn't make any difference to me--but maybe it does to you--if the finished product were assembled and tested to Leica standards by Leica technicians in China.

 

The finished product meets Leica standards in either case.

 

To me, that's the thing that matters. I need to figure out whether a particular product meets my needs and whether it's worth its price for me. The fact that a shutter comes from Japan and a lens from Canada and a body casting from a little old lady in Paris, Texas, is nothing more than interesting detail.

 

My apology for putting words in your mouth. Clearly, I can't answer your question because I can't see how "Where is X1 made?" relates to its price.

 

Good luck. I'm sure someone here can give you the information you're looking for!

 

Howard, it may be just an 'interesting detail' to you but when companies charge a premium for certain superiority like 'German craftsmanship' or 'Italian design', then I don't think it's right that the consumer gets 'standards according to German craftsmanship or Italian design'. In this case, I would have accepted even if the X1 was completely made in Japan had Spiller not explicitly said it was manufactured in Solms.

[sdai]

Apart from that, the amount to which brand and technology of the sensor determines the eventual image quality is often exaggerated. While bigger pixels are generally better than smaller pixels, you can get both good and bad results from almost any sensor currently used in DSLRs and EVIL cameras, be it from Canon, Kodak, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony etc.. People are writing stuff like “It’s from Kodak” (implying this and that) or “It’s a CMOS sensor” (again implying one thing or another), but many of the supposedly typical properties of CCD vs. CMOS or Kodak vs. Canon (vs. Sony etc.) properly belong to the mythical realm. It makes me cringe when people suggest that CMOS sensors would be inherently less noisy than CCDs, for example, when it was their fixed-pattern noise that for a long time had prevented their use in DSLRs. Pixel pitch makes a difference, fill-factor makes a difference, (not) having an antialiasing filter makes a difference … but I don’t buy most “sensors from vendor X are generally superior to sensors from vendor Y” claims. The very same type of Sony sensor in a Nikon, Pentax, or Sony DSLR can produce markedly different images, for example.

 

I fully agree with you, Michael. While the proof still remains to be seen, the concept is extremely intriguing. It boggles my mind why such a thing can't be done by any Japanese companies the only reason I can think of is probably corporate greed aiming at maximized profit by blanketing the low end with cheap crappy junks and charging a premium for the mid to high end products ... this leaves the middle ground for Leica to play with.

 

But back to the original topic: Compare the description of the X1 autofocus to that of the FZ38 autofocus and tell me whether you can tell them apart. And I don’t assume Leica has been busily re-inventing face recognition at Solms so they could implement it in the X1. This stuff was surely invented elsewhere.

 

Before the announcement I was actually thinking that Leica might have chosen the FZ38 to rebadge as a V Lux 2. I've briefly handled with the camera in a local camera shop, well, without setting my expectation overly high, I think the contrast AF performance is pretty good, enough to cope with most daily shooting conditions.

 

Leica surely knows there's no need to reinvent the wheel everytime they want to do something. Canon, Nikon et al learned building cameras, lenses from Leitz, Zeiss etc. many decades ago, till today, many Japanese still consider the M as the mother of all cameras ... they've since leapfrogged. Now why can't Leica learn from them and regain their lost ground?

 

I think the X1 is a great start.

[ho_co]

I would think it to be extremely unrealistic that a Japanese vendor would accept to give all the marketing thunder to Leica only to release its own model (identical except for cosmetic changes) later. That simply won't happen and I'm willing to bet...

With Digilux 2 and Digilux 3, Panasonic seems to have set their prices according to Leica's standard. The X1 has only been introduced so far; there may be a sibling on the market before it ships.

I'd also be surprised if we'd see a compact camera from the Far East with such a clear-cut and traditional (call it "retro" if you want) set of controls anytime soon.

Camera "designed by Leica." Obviously, you may be right. The whole topic is speculation.

 

 

When "Made in Germany" is written on a product, final assembly in Germany wouldn't be sufficient (it would be "Assembled in").

Georg--is that according to German law? How does it read specifically? The M8 is "Made in Germany" although greatly pre-assembled in Portugal.

 

 

Howard, it may be just an 'interesting detail' to you but when companies charge a premium for certain superiority like 'German craftsmanship' or 'Italian design', then I don't think it's right that the consumer gets 'standards according to German craftsmanship or Italian design'.

Your choice. I've said what I have to say about that. If it's "Made in Germany" according to the laws of the BRD and you don't like their definition, you can take it up with them.

 

In this case, I would have accepted even if the X1 was completely made in Japan had Spiller not explicitly said it was manufactured in Solms.

I may be wrong, but I don't think he said "manufactured in." I thought it was something like "assembled and tested in."

 

 

It's your/my choice whether we think a product is worth our purchase. I've been very happy with my Digiluxes and D-Luxes. LFI reported that my D-Lux 2 is functionally identical to the Panasonic equivalent, but I'd rather carry a Leica. Others will choose differently.

 

I remember being shocked when I realized that Leitz commonly bought Hoya glass, and used their own glass lab only to produce formulations that weren't commercially available. I was similarly shocked when I discovered that some parts of lenses "Made in Canada" arrived pre-assembled from producers in the East. I've moved some way since then toward understanding how shallow my knowledge was, and how deep my assumptions.

 

It's interesting to know where the parts come from, but the important thing to me is how it works, and whether I'm interested in paying the price for that performance.

 

Leica can keep prices down by buying from Asia, and can keep profits up by selling "Made in Germany." Nothing wrong with that IMO. If it performs at the level I expect from Leica, then I just need to decide whether I can afford it.

[TEBnewyork]

I've thought about Sony but just had a hard time believing it, Michael ... most people who have worked in a Japanese company will tell you that making Sony and Panasonic work together is kind of ... a magic.

 

Wasn't the Digilux 2/Panasonic LC1 a Sony sensor.....

[sdai]

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Wasn't the Digilux 2/Panasonic LC1 a Sony sensor.....

 

Yep. But that was done at the time when Panasonic could do nothing and Sony was almost their only choice domestically ... other than that, they always clash head on at every level from industrial standards to the smallest components.

[nhabedi]

is that according to German law? How does it read specifically? The M8 is "Made in Germany" although greatly pre-assembled in Portugal.

 

Not law, but based on several court decisions. A short explanation (in German) can be found here:

 

Made in Germany ? Wikipedia

 

Interestingly, it says there that the rules US customs applies are even tighter, so if you want to sell something with "Made in Germany" on it in the US, you better look at their rules.

[jackart]

I believe, that one of the most important assembly operations is precision-aligning the sensor. If that is done in Solms, then I'm pleased.

 

Image from M9 assembly line. Read more in Factory Tour article

 

 

Jaak

[georg]

@ho_co

According to German law, "Made in Germany" needs significant economic value - no specific number but if you just assemble parts it has to called "Assembled in Germany".

There are more strict regulations with "Solingen" (Knifes etc. except raw material entirely manufactured in Solingen) or "Swiss Made" (>50% economic value + final assembly in watch calibers)

 

"I remember being shocked when I realized that Leitz commonly bought Hoya glass, and used their own glass lab only to produce formulations that weren't commercially available."

 

Today most glass is bought from Schott in Mainz. Most mechanical parts are made from Weller - the lenses are surely >>90% "Made in Germany". That's another crucial point of the X1, it seems to have a REAL Leica-lens.

 

"Georg--is that according to German law? How does it read specifically? The M8 is "Made in Germany" although greatly pre-assembled in Portugal."

 

Assembled, not build. Most of the mechanical parts, the circuit boards... are from German suppliers. Neither Portugal or Solms add significant economic value (>20%?)

 

 

"Leica can keep prices down by buying from Asia, and can keep profits up by selling "Made in Germany." Nothing wrong with that IMO."

That's very problematic and a major problem of todays world economy (who buys all that stuff when 90% of the population don't have proper wages?) . Making cheap, selling expensive. Japan could possible provide technology and quality (except for optics) but won't be cheaper and China isn't capable of the quality (and the low wages don't help when it creates new costs - one company I worked for produced the same products in various countries, the ones "made in Germany" were the cheapest and best despite highest wages!).

QC isn't all, you need skilled craftsmen, infrastructure and direct contact to R&D - Solms can provide that unlike any other.

I hope that the X1 is made by the same suppliers as M9/S2 (except for the sensor, which is propably from Sony).

You barely find German electronics in consumer electronics but in the oil industry, mechanical engineering, aerospace & military industry - it would be great if we could profit from this know-how, too! The motors for the S2-AF for example come from a Swiss (same standards as Germany) company which propably manufactured the motors for the Mars Rover! Chinese manufacture much more of these small motors used in most consumer electronics - but quality isn't about quantity.

[integrale]

The original question was "where is X1 made" and the answer to that question is not the same as the question whether the "Made in Germany" label (if indeed such a label is attached to the X1) is in accordance with applicable law.

 

Under WTO and GATT the rules of origin have been discussed for years, cf. e.g. WTO | Rules of origin - Technical Information without any decisive or final conclusions.

 

Furthermore, if the label reads "Leica Camera Germany" as on the Digilux 2, it could be argued that this is misleading under applicable (consumer protection) law, if the camera (under applicable law) is indeed manufactured elsewhere. The Digilux 2 states on the base plate (non-removeable...) that it is in fact manufactured in Japan. To me, this does not reduce the value of the camera, since Japan has a very long tradition for manufacturing quality products, including quality camera equipment, but to others this may be important.

 

You cannot argue these points with personal viewpoints and expect to "win the argument", since these rules vary across the world and since you must accept that your national law does not (necessarily) apply globally.

 

Just my 2c…

[earleygallery]

What would happen if Leica employed loads of Japanese people in Solms? Made in Germany by the Japanese?

[efftee]

What would happen if Leica employed loads of Japanese people in Solms? Made in Germany by the Japanese?

 

Probably more economical to ship loads of techies from Solms to Japan and say 'Made by Germans'.

[ho_co]

Probably more economical to ship loads of techies from Solms to Japan and say 'Made by Germans'.

Exactly my point in post 35 above.

 

 

Georg & nhabedi--

Thanks for the insight. I don't think I've ever seen a product marked "Assembled in Germany." And it may be US law that prevails here instead of German. I'm sure Leica will label the product in accordance with the strictest requirements.

 

I won't argue about glass sources, but do listen to Leica when they talk about Schott. I seem to recall a formulation along the line of "we get a lot of glass from Schott." Again, the source makes no difference once a person realizes that Leica chooses the glass right for the job. Perkin-Elmer, Schott, Hoya--question is simply, "Who has the needed glass type at the best price?"

 

The design and assembly are crucial, and that's Leica's forte. Keep in mind, though, that they got some good lenses from other suppliers during the days of the R, Sigma, Minolta and Schneider among them--but all built to Leica's standards and sold under Leica's name.

 

 

I think integrale has summarized the matter quite well. That's what I've failed to say so succinctly: The camera will be made, labeled and sold. Period.

 

It will be a Leica camera and will have a "real" Leica lens (as several people have designated it) whatever its origin. A lot of us are nonetheless curious about who the partners are.

 

 

"Georg--is that according to German law? How does it read specifically? The M8 is "Made in Germany" although greatly pre-assembled in Portugal."

 

Assembled, not build. Most of the mechanical parts, the circuit boards... are from German suppliers. Neither Portugal or Solms add significant economic value (>20%?)

My M8 says "Made in Germany.

[andybarton]

On the back of the camera, it just says "Leica Camera Germany"

 

Meaning that the camera could be made anywhere.

 

IIRC, my old CM had the same script, and that was made in Japan, or Singapore or somewhere.

 

[ho_co]

Now, Andy, you've had to spoil all our logic with fact.

 

J Mitchum, you already said as much in post 21. azman, you are right in saying we need to look at the baseplate.

 

 

I thought someone had said it was "made in Germany."

 

 

Andy, where is your image from?

 

You are right. When the product isn't "Made in Germany," the standard label is "Leica Camera Germany," with the country of origin stamped on the bottom plate.

 

 

Do I understand correctly that the brochure says "Made in Germany," but the camera picture doesn't?

[andybarton]

At the top of every page there's a big red button eith 09/09/09 on it

 

Click on it and all the info and all the photographs of the new kit are there. I assumed that everyone had read all that

[earleygallery]

Leica Camera AG, Solms, presents a new generation of Leica digital cameras ‘Made in Germany’ – the LEICA X1. The LEICA X1 is equipped with a CMOS sensor in APS-C format, just like those used in semi-professional DSLR cameras.

 

Leica's script, lifted from the microsite. Interesting, their use of inverted commas....I'm pretty sure that most of this camera is produced elsewhere, components shipped to Germany where they fit it together and package it.

 

This would also lead me to think that the lens is made by Panasonic - the lens barrel assembly is very similar to the Dlux.

[sean_reid]

The official Leica answer is that the X1 is made in Germany. We realize, of course, that there are partnerships involved in the production of this camera but it is officially made in Germany according to Leica USA's Christian Erhardt.

 

Sorry for any confusion, my notes had indicated a different country of manufacture. Freudian slip maybe...

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[elansprint72]

......... Sean Reid, in his review of the X1, states that the 'X1 was designed by Leica but manufactured in Japan'. .......

 

Sean, did you write that? If so, presumably to write a review you have have handled a production camera? What did it say on the bottom plate?