Not sure i will fix it.

[sean_reid]

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Sean- Nice assessment of the situation. Rings true to me.

 

So assuming that the filter does become one of the solutions for color imaging, how do we go about coming up with or obtaining improved "filter on" professionally constructed profiles? Do we wait for C1 to update theirs?

 

It's a great question. I'm hoping C1 will come up with a new profile. Otherwise, we should turn to one of the independents for an excellent custom profile (as many of us have for lots of cameras). I may take a stab at one soon with Coloreyes. First, though, I want to be sure of which IR cut filter Leica will be using. I'm not aware of that having been announced.

 

Anyone on the forum have expertise with creating custom profiles?

 

And, of course, for B&W I'm just photographing bareback <G>. Expected to be out today shooting the 28s but still chasing a flu.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[jonoslack]

In other words, adding a strong IR filter in front of the sensor probably would be a mistake if one considers all factors.

 

Hi Sean - you got me into this mess, now . . . .

 

To be honest, the M8 has been the most inspiring photographic experience I've had for many years, and I'm really grateful for your part in getting me there.

 

I'd come to the same conclusions - Banding and crappy white balance will be fixed - IR issue is designed in.

 

We went for a family walk today - lots of jibes from 18 year old about being too old to walk fast (taking photos). They had black plastic jackets on, and, serve them right, now they're purple!

 

More seriously, I think that the IR issue is simply one of publicity - and probably a gesture of a couple of filters for each buyer. Ironically I wonder whether all this publicity might not be a good thing in the long run.

 

But I don't think that the IR filters need to be used all the time - for outdoor work, the camera seems to do really well anyway - every time I zoom in to 100% I can't help but smile.

 

Anyway, many thanks to you for your inspiring work - to Jamie for his profiles (which don't work that well for landscapes yet, but I'm sure they will) and to Guy for his doggedness and good fun.

 

This camera may be broken . . . . but 1000 photos in I'M HAVING A BALL!

[skimmel]

I realize this is perhaps an unanswerable question but:

 

How much image quality is lost from an IR filter in front of the lens vs. in front of the sensor?

 

I guess another way to ask the question is: Does the IR filter in front of the lens compromise the image quality in a way that is different than a stronger IR filter in front of the sensor would?

 

I've read from some that they think that the IR filter on the lens actually improves sharpness. Is that correct?

[jonoslack]

Jono some of my rambling thoughts also are to use the IR filter indoors were the IR is strong and i always run into the blacks like the wedding shooters have to deal with i deal with suits also and black drop curtains and such but outdoors i may take them off and just go the software route there. I do like the camera outdoors without the IR also and with the IR from what i seen there is some strange color. So maybe this is a two fold issue. I think we all need more time with this. I also dais this early on this crap takes time and as new owners grab there M8 i need to remind them of this. It took awhile to get the handle of the DMR and the M8 is actually more complex with the IR filter so we need to get our systems down and try different things.

 

Actually guys this is pretty wild how we can chnage things to fit your needs

 

HI Guy

I was in on the early days with the Kodak 14n (and involved a little with the testing of the raw converter and firmware). They did finally get it 'right' but long after the horse had bolted!

 

The Leica seems so close to the perfect camera for me - and to be honest, I'd settle for it as it is rather than compromise what's already there.

 

Let's hope that the adverse publicity simply brings Leica a little notice - and the fixes bring back the confidence.

 

There must be many photographers like me, who had never used a rangefinder, and who could fall in love very fast (and very expensively!).

 

Thanks for all your great work.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Jono for the record i have shot 11x14 and everything down to a Minox but i am new also to RF in leica M, so i am having a ball with this thing. Come Tuesday iwill have this current nightmare project out of here so i can go play and test a few things out , i want to try IR on and off in the sun more and see if an what it really is doing. Plus sharpness tests with on and off. Plus take some controlled shots with the DMR and the M8 and see what is going on. I'm a visual person so i need to see what is up on what we have been talking about . The good part about the forum is your getting the groundwork laid so you know what to look for

[jonoslack]

Jono for the record i have shot 11x14 and everything down to a Minox but i am new also to RF in leica M, so i am having a ball with this thing. Come Tuesday iwill have this current nightmare project out of here so i can go play and test a few things out , i want to try IR on and off in the sun more and see if an what it really is doing. Plus sharpness tests with on and off. Plus take some controlled shots with the DMR and the M8 and see what is going on. I'm a visual person so i need to see what is up on what we have been talking about . The good part about the forum is your getting the groundwork laid so you know what to look for

I didn't realise you were new to it as well. There is something wonderful about all that space around what you're taking in the viewfinder - I love it.

I'll be fascinated to see what you come up with doing real comparisons - I've had a go at getting a couple of filters - but everywhere I went they said

"Oh, that Guy Mancuso Geyser already bought all of ours"

So I'll have to wait and see what you come up with!

[cpclee]

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Filtering IR at the senor introduces two ill effects. First the thicker glass on the sensor means more vignetting as well as chromatic abberation. Second the small amount of light that is reflected off the glass surface can bounce around the inside of the camera to cause flare. (If one uses an external IR filter in front of the lens, the light that is reflected off the filter surface stays outside of the optical system.)

 

Applying an external filter does not lead to these problems. It is optically the best way to go, although not necessary the cheaper way (especially for people who have a large collection of lenses). Nevertheless, Leica should have better communicated this design choice/compromise.

[sean_reid]

Sean- Nice assessment of the situation. Rings true to me.

 

So assuming that the filter does become one of the solutions for color imaging, how do we go about coming up with or obtaining improved "filter on" professionally constructed profiles? Do we wait for C1 to update theirs?

 

Hopefully it comes from C1 at the same times as the filters. Otherwise, the best bet is for a color expert to make up a custom (neutral) profile.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

A Ha. You ask for filters and we have filters today.LOL I ordered 2 55mm from him , there on there way he said.

 

eBay Shop - Käsemann: Wir verkaufen UV-Filter, zirkular, MRC.

 

I have a small issue . i really want the 28mm focal length and i have a 46mm for a 28 F2 coming but if i buy the 28 2.8 it takes a 39mm filter. hard to find a 39. Hmmm . really loved that focal length.

[sreidvt]

Hi Guy,

 

I've ordered 39s from Tony but it will take awhile. If you find any, let me know please.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I will , just get 2 if i find them . Really like to get that little new 28 2.8 . i may have a store of battiers and filters in no ime. LOL

 

B&H has grips on there site. Also batteries are coming in. Dealer called me today and had 1 and only one coming to me but i hear a few other stores there coming in. Finally

[skimmel]

Filtering IR at the senor introduces two ill effects. First the thicker glass on the sensor means more vignetting as well as chromatic abberation. Second the small amount of light that is reflected off the glass surface can bounce around the inside of the camera to cause flare. (If one uses an external IR filter in front of the lens, the light that is reflected off the filter surface stays outside of the optical system.)

 

Applying an external filter does not lead to these problems. It is optically the best way to go, although not necessary the cheaper way (especially for people who have a large collection of lenses). Nevertheless, Leica should have better communicated this design choice/compromise.

 

Thanks. This is very useful information. I currently have UV filters on my lenses so I'm comfortable with a different type of glass on them. (I realize it's anathema for many to use filters on M lenses, but my fear of smacking and cracking my front lens element on these very expensive lenses overides any concern about image quality -- and when I've tried with the filters on and off, I couldn't tell a difference in prints.)

[devils-advocate]

Anyone want to start a pool on when some conspiracy-trollist will suggest that this is all an elaborate and ingenious scheme by Leica to create an instant collector classic --- the "unmodified M8-IR". Just think, when the 'fixed' M8 comes out of Solms, with its muted colours, dulled sharpness and boring-blacks, the re-sale market for those rare 'first-wave' M8s will explode! Guy, Sean and Michael (who are all in on it, of course) will be millionaires. Leica, amazingly, will uncover a lost palette of these rare gems in their basement, and will punt them out in a specially numbered edition in engraved mahogany boxes for only 9,900 Euros each, while quantities last. The revenues flow and the company is saved.

 

....what evil genius is afoot.

[rick_dykstra]

I realize this is perhaps an unanswerable question but:

 

How much image quality is lost from an IR filter in front of the lens vs. in front of the sensor?

 

I guess another way to ask the question is: Does the IR filter in front of the lens compromise the image quality in a way that is different than a stronger IR filter in front of the sensor would?

 

I've read from some that they think that the IR filter on the lens actually improves sharpness. Is that correct?

 

Let's think of it in terms of film first. The colours of the spectrum that film is sensitive to are diffracted by lenses differently. The cover of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon provides an illustration most of us can bring to mind. Or think of how light is broken up by raindrops to produce a rainbow. This breakup causes unsharpness as light reflecting off a point source goes through the lens and hits the film at slightly different places. Good lens design can reduce this effect.

 

Now let's turn to the situation with M series cameras and the M8 in particular. There's no mirror box and the M lenses sit closer to the film/sensor plane than with SLRs. The range of angles that light hits this plane, from the center of the image to the edges, varies more than with SLRs. The light coming out of the back of an M lens has to fan out more sharply to reach the edges of film or sensor than with an R lens and body. Those well designed lenses (perhaps apochromatically corrected to keep the different colours together by the time they hit the film/sensor plane) have done their job, only to have the light diffracted again when it goes through the glass in front of the sensor! Geez. With an M8 the extent of diffraction varies across the sensor, from center to edges, moreso than with digital SLRs. And, importantly, if the glass is thicker there is more depth for diffraction to spread before it hits the little pixel buckets in the CCD.

 

So keeping the glass thin helps retain imaging sharpness where the lenses sit close to the sensor. Some chromatic aberration still occurs - which may be compensated for by the body knowing which lens is mounted - hence the lens coding (which also helps account for vignetting).

 

Leica have given us a double helping of sharpness retention. The cover over the pixels is thin and, there's no anti-aliasing filter.

 

Turning to skimmel's questions -

 

- Given that the sensor is sensitive to IR which will split from other colours as it passes through the lens elements and the glass cover of the sensor, if the IR is filtered out before passing through the lens there will be an improvement in image sharpness.

 

- Putting an additional or thicker glass cover over the sensor will increase the effects of chromatic aberration, causing light to spill into adjacent pixel buckets and reducing sharpness.

 

It is conceivable that a different sensor cover with greater IR filtering properties could be used though it would introduce other light transmission problems. It may be that very clever algorithms could compensate for this, however the variety needed for different lenses, the variation within lenses of one part number (not to mention third party lenses)and the effect of differing light conditions would surely make this a difficult challenge. Chopping out the IR before it enters the system is most likely the best solution.

[skimmel]

Thanks Rick. That's an amazingly clear description!!! (It's also funny that you mention Dark Side of the Moon -- that's the image I always get in my mind when I think of light splitting!)

 

Given this premise, I am really leaning towards Guy's approach. I was holding off on considering an M8, but I may just buy one now!

[KM-25]

I just got back from shooting a little and having a nice day out.

 

Just get out and shoot, it's nice to do you know.

 

Less time on here=good.

 

More time typing on here groaning over a camera that Leica is the only one that can fix=not good.

[rick_dykstra]

I just got back from shooting a little and having a nice day out.

 

Just get out and shoot, it's nice to do you know.

 

Less time on here=good.

 

More time typing on here groaning over a camera that Leica is the only one that can fix=not good.

 

Good points KM. I'm sitting here because I've just had a molar pulled and am under instructions to rest. Normally I'd be out all dressed up in camos, waiting for birds to come and land on my long lenses. Please let us know how your fun day out with your girlfriend goes - that was nice picture you painted in your earlier post.

 

Regards, Rick.

[canlogic]

I will , just get 2 if i find them . Really like to get that little new 28 2.8 . i may have a store of battiers and filters in no ime. LOL

 

B&H has grips on there site. Also batteries are coming in. Dealer called me today and had 1 and only one coming to me but i hear a few other stores there coming in. Finally

 

I was going to get the grip but then I heard about these.

 

Rapidwinder & Rapidgrip

 

Supposed to be great. I ordered the soft touch release and grip is supposed to be soon.

[craigrmurray]

To Guy and Sean:

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you guys concerning the retrofit of the M8 -- Be careful what you wish for.

 

I, too, own both the DMR and M8. I can't vouch as much for the color, but I can immediately tell the M8's B&W shots from the DMR's, kinda like spotting Tri-X negs shot with a Leica from a Nikon's (that was perhaps more of a lens difference).

 

Also, the low-light capabililty of the M8's capture exceeds that of the DMR, doncha think?

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[ed_oneal]

M8 requirements have presented a great number of engineering challenges:

1. Use of any and all previously released Leitz/Leica lenses.

2. Same external dimensions as previous M cameras.

3. Same quality of results as from previous digital cameras especially at low light levels.

 

Earlier someone mentioned possible mutual exclusivity of some of these requirements. We do a lot of things nowadays that were considered mutually exclusive 50 years ago, but it will take time to resolve those which present themselves today. In the meantime we have the following problems:

 

A. The state of the art in sensors results in high sensitivity to IR and the external dimensions requirement has resulted in a crop factor vis a vis 35mm film in order to reduce problems at the edges of the frame. ( I notice that no one has even mentioned the crop factor since the IR and other problems have been revealed.)

 

B.The body dimension requirement has precluded introducing an effective internal IR filter that won't affect focus around the edges.

 

What to do?

 

a. External filters seem to solve the IR problem but some folks just don't like them. An anti-IR coating on the front element of the lens might be possible but then you violate the requirement for compatibility with all previous lenses.

 

b. Internally or externally process the sensor output to reduce the IR effect. Internal elimination of IR will offend a few folks (< 10% ?) who would like to do IR photography who like the current IR sensitivity. A requirement for external processing would offend another group.

 

My conclusion: Live with it. Leica will deal with some of the problems but not everyone will like their solution(s). Lots of folks think it's great the way it is. My M3 isn't perfect, but I love it. I even use a IIIf on occasion. I'm seriously thinking of getting an M8 despite the huge price for a non-professional.