sdai Posted November 18, 2006 Share #1 Posted November 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c029.html Since it's 1:06AM EST now so I'd rather let you guys start the debate, it's worth to note that he didn't forget to blame both Leica AG and the internet community. I am inclined to observe at this moment in time that the Leica Company and the Internet Community of Leica observers and opinion-forgers do the M8 a bad service to over-expose the IR-issue. The way the involved persons handle the topic is in my view ill-advised and even irresponsible. I'm going to accept the filters ... what about you guys? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 18, 2006 Posted November 18, 2006 Hi sdai, Take a look here Erwin Puts on Magenta Madness . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rob_x2004 Posted November 18, 2006 Share #2 Posted November 18, 2006 Gee...And it is all new news. I never knowed any of that. No wuns discussed anyfing like it bfore in her. :eek: :eek: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 18, 2006 Share #3 Posted November 18, 2006 The guy should really avoid talking about digital. I like the "overstatement" and so on. This is the major issue, making it almost impossible to shoot under incandescent light and risky even under day light if synthetic fibers are around... BTW, did he notice the problem in this wonderful review where he shoot resolution charts ? Did he notice the banding/streaking problem ? Sorry to say so but in the digital area, the guy is as obsolete as a 1936 Leica IIIa. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted November 18, 2006 Share #4 Posted November 18, 2006 Goodness...Epithany...I see...Hey Zues! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakley Posted November 18, 2006 Share #5 Posted November 18, 2006 So you know... love him or hate him, Erwin is an honest man - he writes what he really, really feels. I think what he's written is much more instructive than a lot of what you read here and elsewhere. Leica tried to solve a very hard engineering problem. They had a specific objective - to optimise for the quality of the lenses. To meet this objective, they did what engineers do - they made tradeoffs. The result is a product with strengths & weaknesses. Erwin is prepared to accept the weaknesses in order to use the strengths. In the grand scheme of things, a 486 filter is a much cheaper fix than what NASA had to apply to the Hubble telescope. The Hubble has been a spectacular success. The M8 probably will be too - for people who get out there & use it for what it does well. The Holga has a lot of limitations. Lots of people get heartbreakingly beautiful pictures with it. The M8 has many, many fewer limitations. It's possible people may get some good pictures with it too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 18, 2006 Share #6 Posted November 18, 2006 So you know... love him or hate him, Erwin is an honest man - he writes what he really, really feels. So does every maniac in the world too. What is your point ? I do not want a reviewer to write what he feels. I want him to write what he found using serious testing and appropriate means. Using film based methods and way of thinking does not even comes close. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 18, 2006 Share #7 Posted November 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I could say a lot of things here but lets just not to say anything at all becuse it would hurt my side from laughing too much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted November 18, 2006 Share #8 Posted November 18, 2006 Sorry to say so but in the digital area, the guy is as obsolete as a 1936 Leica IIIa. Obsolete? I don't think so, a llla can produce an outstanding quality image, devoid of any of the M8 flaws! I thought Erwin Puts had given up - he had a very public falling out with Leica which he announced several times on the old Leica forum, and said he wasn't going to review any more Leica products. I guess they paid his royalties in the end then? "But to borrow a car analogy: if I want a sports car, I will have to accept that the SUV capabilities are limited to non-existent" :D Seems the he knew about the cameras issues before it was released also then. So how come - given that the magenta problem is actually not a problem but part of the design, how come Leica didn't make this a 'feature' in their publicity and why weren't they ready with a supply of IR filters? Stop the spin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjon Posted November 18, 2006 Share #9 Posted November 18, 2006 There are none so blind as those who see only magenta, streaking and green blobs et al. Leica got their PR wrong as Erwin Puts rightly states; but the engineering compromises they made were the correct ones in my non-expert opinion. Having studied physics at university I can confirm that gravity is a bitch and wave optics even worse. The M8 is what it is; buy it, don't buy it, depends on how you want to use it. I want the Leica M lens imprint on my photos most of the time - and my hit rate will be a function of my poor skills rather than how often I encounter the magenta inducing subjects. I think it highly unlikely that Leica will touch the senor or glass cover and my M8 will defintely not be going back for such a re-fit in the very unlikely event that Leica get bounced into adopting such an unwise course of action. IR filters and improved AWB performance would be reasonable fixes for me. It appears that profiling can also go a long way to eliminate magenta issues, if not completely. For professionals and others who cannot live with these compromises, they can choose to forego the M lens and the M8. For the rest of us mere photographic mortals I am very confident that the M8 is destined for greatness even if we are not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 18, 2006 Share #10 Posted November 18, 2006 Seems the he knew about the cameras issues before it was released also then. So how come - given that the magenta problem is actually not a problem but part of the design, how come Leica didn't make this a 'feature' in their publicity and why weren't they ready with a supply of IR filters? Because they didn't know the problem was so bad. They thought it was just a small magenta cast under some lights. And to answer drjon, those who see only these problems are the ones who bought the camera, are trying to use it and to report to Leica every problem they meet so it can get fix. So, they do not care so much about being lectured by those who did not even tried the M8... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjon Posted November 18, 2006 Share #11 Posted November 18, 2006 I have had the camera for some time now and the results I am getting are, in my non-expert opinion, excellent from a technical standpoint - I make no claims about their artistic quality. I have posted several examples in the Photo Forum. I will let the lecturing remark pass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted November 18, 2006 Share #12 Posted November 18, 2006 I say again - this has been one of the most interesting weeks on the web I can remember. Onya Erwin. This bun-fight wouldn't have been complete without your contribution. He's right though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted November 18, 2006 Share #13 Posted November 18, 2006 Ah, the benefit of hindsight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 18, 2006 Share #14 Posted November 18, 2006 I think it highly unlikely that Leica will touch the senor or glass cover and my M8 will defintely not be going back for such a re-fit in the very unlikely event that Leica get bounced into adopting such an unwise course of action. IR filters and improved AWB performance would be reasonable fixes for me. It appears that profiling can also go a long way to eliminate magenta issues, if not completely. HI Jon I couldn't agree more - rushing into solutions is usually a bad idea - especially to something you've been working on for several years. I'd like to see the banding fixed as well (and I'm sure it will be). I was first in line for an M8, but I'm certainly not going to be first in line for the trip back to Solms. I'd like a couple of filters for when they are required, and, as you say, a firmware upgrade to deal with the mad white balance - as for the rest, I'm gonna wait and see what the compromises might be before committing to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted November 18, 2006 Share #15 Posted November 18, 2006 The folks at Leica should have said this: we give you a digital M with the ability to exploit the characteristics of your Leica lenses, but we must also say that to offer you this we had to make some compromises: the following list gives the compromises and we give you advice for workarounds if you work in some special conditions. Erwin is right here. I like to read Erwin columns, although sometimes I don't fully agree. The IR cast does not bothers me (I will use an external filter), but the banding is a different thing. If it is a hardware fail the cause is not a concious "compromise", but an error. I hope and wish Leica can solve it by means of a firmware update. I want not to send the camera for Solms and be without it two weeks or so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted November 18, 2006 Share #16 Posted November 18, 2006 Erwin says it's a case of Puts up or shuts up! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 18, 2006 Share #17 Posted November 18, 2006 The IR cast does not bothers me (I will use an external filter), but the banding is a different thing. If it is a hardware fail the cause is not a concious "compromise", but an error. Banding happened to a lot of digital cameras before and has always been solved quickly. IR problem is not a "compromise" but a major design fault. No other camera has shown such an high IR sensitivity before. To fix it, we will have to buy filters and put them in front of each of our lenses and probably to encode them too. This was unannouced and will increase the real price of each and every M8 sold. And the solution might well not be compatible with non-Leica lenses. What will you explain to the guy who bought a Zeiss 21mm, a VC 15mm and others ? On the other hand, the banding issue will be fixed under warranty at no cost, will not occur on the next M8 batch and that's it. No problem with non-Leica lenses, no more money to spend, no lateral red reflection on your lenses... If you do not want to part for 2 weeks with a body you got 1 month before expected delivery and think this is a big problem, this is up to you. But so far, IR is indeed the biggest problem and also the one with the worst solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 18, 2006 Share #18 Posted November 18, 2006 and when 'Blind Freddy' adds his spiel the circle will be complete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamilsukun Posted November 18, 2006 Share #19 Posted November 18, 2006 I agree generally with Erwin Puts' opinions in his review. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted November 18, 2006 Share #20 Posted November 18, 2006 It's not the magnitude of the problem that has ticked consumers off. It's that Leica and many of the reviewers knew of the problems, -- some of them afterall are design issues -- but still tried to pass off an expensive camera on its customers. And it they didn't know about some of these issues, which I find hard to believe, then they're just incompetent. Leica has been disrespectful to us -- its consumers -- to think that we would accept this quality for $5000. Far from be "irresponsible", that's just how the market works when you shoot yourself in the foot. Plus this all just a smokescreen for Putts to distract attention from the issue of why he didn't note these problems. And fron wat I understand, they are not minor problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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