stunsworth Posted August 30, 2009 Share #41 Posted August 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am surprised that noone has commented my final comment:Quote I wonder why Leica does not introduce some special offers as a way of stimulating sales as we move towards christmas Maybe because Christmas is still 4 month away. Who knows what they are going to do. I certainly don't, and neither do you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 30, 2009 Posted August 30, 2009 Hi stunsworth, Take a look here What is happening at Leica?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
johnastovall Posted August 30, 2009 Share #42 Posted August 30, 2009 <snipped> > Should Leica put resources towards introcuing something that increases the market niche served by the M camera......fisheye, super wide angle, and yes EVF or whatever that allows access to Macro and Telephoto and Zoom...for those that want it. <snipped> Only if they wish to destroy the M line. If you want those things buy a dSLR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 30, 2009 Share #43 Posted August 30, 2009 Only if they wish to destroy the M line. If you want those things buy a dSLR. Groundhog day - John, we've covered this many times since Frank joined the forum, I do wish you hadn't brought it up <grin>. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted August 30, 2009 Share #44 Posted August 30, 2009 Maybe because Christmas is still 4 month away. Who knows what they are going to do. I certainly don't, and neither do you. Let's see what happens on Sept 9th.. One month to produce a large quantity of bodies and lenses and check them thoroughly to Leica Quality standard? One month to ship to distribution points and then on to dealers? One month to 6 weeks to stimulate demand? ......I hope they do something like this as I would personally be interested to get my wife on board for a nice 18mm lens etc. and that usually takes longer than three months. I have already used the need to photo our new grand daughter as a rationale for a recent M8 purchase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 30, 2009 Share #45 Posted August 30, 2009 The demand is already there, Frank... and you have no idea how long they have been working on the inventory. I would expect that with modern courier techniques, they can ship anywhere in the world in quantity in 7 days. Have you seen my emails, yet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted August 30, 2009 Share #46 Posted August 30, 2009 Groundhog day - John, we've covered this many times since Frank joined the forum, I do wish you hadn't brought it up <grin>. You are correct and you very well may be right about EVF Viso etc.and maybe it is stupid to open the 95% dominance that Leica apparently has in rangefinders to grow that business, and widen the market .....This remains my humble suggestion to grow Leica business significantly by opening the niche that the M currently occupies. OK I am maybe wrong. I have asked if anyone has a better idea but I have not heard a single idea in now a few months. Let me ask again "How does Leica grow the revenue level to the 250M €uros level that Dr Kaufmann says that he needs against last year's 135M €uros or 155M€uros the previous year. " Is S2 and Pradovit and M9 going to achieve this ...or is something else needed? Geoff pationately asks that we all go out and buy Leica product and he is correct but what product? How can many more people be persuaded to buy Leica product? If this question cannot be clearly answered ...well I let forum members dwell on that one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 30, 2009 Share #47 Posted August 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) One month to produce a large quantity of bodies and lenses and check them thoroughly to Leica Quality standard? I would have thought assembly staff would be far better utilised manufacturing M9s - assuming that model is released on the 9th - rather than a reduced margin M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
efftee Posted August 30, 2009 Share #48 Posted August 30, 2009 Leica's glass isn't full at the moment, but then again, most people's glasses aren't. I see their glass as half full. Not half empty. "Some say the glass is half empty, others say it's half full. I say, pour the water out and put some Scotch in that glass." (the late Willard Folsom) Sorry, Andy, couldn't resist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnastovall Posted August 30, 2009 Share #49 Posted August 30, 2009 Groundhog day - John, we've covered this many times since Frank joined the forum, I do wish you hadn't brought it up <grin>. I should have been more positive and pointed out you can use a fisheye on the M now. Just get a Canon FD B adapter and an LTM to M adapter. Then put a Canon 7.5mm FD Fisheye on it and you are in business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted August 30, 2009 Share #50 Posted August 30, 2009 Fifty orders for the S2 from the US doesn't seem that bad, since the camera is expensive and isn't on sale yet. I would expect that there would be larger orders from Germany, the rest of Europe, Japan and perhaps China, with more scattered around the world. If you guess that each camera will generate roughly $50,000 (camera and necessary lenses) then Leica would seem in line to get perhaps $12-$20 million just from pre-orders, and rather quickly, too. Once the camera is here, I would expect sales to increase, unless it turns out to be complete dog. I don't think the S2 will save the company in a crisis, though; if anything, a crisis may discourage possible customers who, looking at such an expensive system, wonder if they will have support for it. Salvation rests with an innovative M9. I guess we will see about that in a week or so. I'm also discouraged by the fact that Leica has apparently turned its back on the 4/3 system -- I don't know whether because of disagreements with Panasonic, or because of a lack of research funding, or what. However, I use M lenses on my G1, and it seems to me that with a little simple re-engineering, a Leica 4/3 camera could make brilliant use of M lenses, and not cost that much to produce. Essentially, it needs an M mount on a Panasonic G1 and some rewritten firmware. And I believe that virtually every M owner would buy one, if only to use with longer lenses (a 135 becomes a 270, and focusing is quick and perfect; and IQ is excellent.) The G1 sells for ~$800, and that includes a profit margin for Panasonic. I think Leica could add a lens mount and software and probably charge $1500, and sell 100,000 of them fairly quickly, along with extra lenses for people who didn't already have them... Ah, well, enough of armchair CEO. I am encouraged by the fact that Leica will guarantee jobs for two years if the employes skip the August holiday. That means they've got cash left. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted August 30, 2009 Share #51 Posted August 30, 2009 I'm not sure what 50 pre-orders really means. Unless people paid firm non-refundable deposits, those orders might never materialize. People have a tendency to want to establish a place in line while they wait to see if it is really what they expected and then cancel out if it isn't. Fifty pre-orders in a country the size of the US market is pretty small potatoes. I'll bet Panasonic has over 5,000 pre-orders for the GF-1 and it is still a rumored camera. I think $50K is pretty optimistic for an out of the shoot system. I would think $30K would be more like it at least until buyers were comfortable that they had made a good buy decision. I sure has hell wouldn't invest $50K in an unproven system by a company struggling to stay alive. Even $30K is a big gamble unless those sums are in the decimal places on your income statement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 30, 2009 Share #52 Posted August 30, 2009 Maybe that's because the R&D work on the S2 is now complete? I don't know, Andy ... now that they're saying they'll withdraw the research funds, does that mean that they'll put the 30-90, 24 and 30TS on shelf or simply scrape them? these are the only things I'm interested in if I buy a S2. I agree with Frank and John, cutting back on research really is the last thing anybody wants to see. In fact, the global economic slump has created the best opportunity for many organizations to go talent hunting in several decades. Companies who would survive the downturn most likely will emerge stronger than ever. Further speculation and finger pointing are not going to help the situation in any way. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the 9/9/9 announcement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 30, 2009 Share #53 Posted August 30, 2009 I'm not sure what 50 pre-orders really means. Unless people paid firm non-refundable deposits, those orders might never materialize. People have a tendency to want to establish a place in line while they wait to see if it is really what they expected and then cancel out if it isn't. Fifty pre-orders in a country the size of the US market is pretty small potatoes. I'll bet Panasonic has over 5,000 pre-orders for the GF-1 and it is still a rumored camera. I think $50K is pretty optimistic for an out of the shoot system. I would think $30K would be more like it at least until buyers were comfortable that they had made a good buy decision. I sure has hell wouldn't invest $50K in an unproven system by a company struggling to stay alive. Even $30K is a big gamble unless those sums are in the decimal places on your income statement. John, I disagree on almost everything here. Few companies accept "pre-orders." If you went into Best Buy and told the salesman you wanted to buy a hundred cameras on speculation that they might one day be introduced, you'd have a problem selling him on the idea. Technically, you can't order a camera until it has a catalog number. A retailer orders the camera (so far as Leica is concerned), not a consumer. Perhaps B&H told Roger Horn "We want the first fifty." Yes, the order can be adjusted later. But this is a promised product with delivery date and price. Some B&H orders will be 'on speculation,' but my bet is that some of them are spoken for. B&H doesn't take risks of that sort. (Choice of B&H as the retailer is simply a convenient example.) To compare S2 with any Panasonic camera is ridiculous. Stick with cameras like Hy6, Hasselblad, Mamiya. Has any of them had 50 orders before the camera shipped? I think not. Speculations on Leica's profits are useless guesses IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted August 30, 2009 Share #54 Posted August 30, 2009 I don't know, Andy ... now that they're saying they'll withdraw the research funds, does that mean that they'll put the 30-90, 24 and 30TS on shelf or simply scrape them? these are the only things I'm interested in if I buy a S2. I doubt it. The S2 needs them, and probably these lenses are past research and into development or production engineering or thereabouts. In any case research spending has only been scaled back, hasn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share #55 Posted August 30, 2009 The Hy6 is gone, and Jenoptik and Sinar are divorcing... British Journal of Photography - Gloomy Sinar the times for Hy6 Only Phase One and Hasselblad are alive. Leica is a newcomer, and Pentax may decide to enter this market as well (only if they find a way of setting a really agressive price for the 645D). Medium format market is slowly sinking... In the film era you had 35mm, 645, 6x6, 6x7 and even larger format cameras for similar prices. The sensor price and its dependence on size is an important difference now, but ir order to get more image size (MP) in medium format you have to pay 3 or 4 times the price of a "pro" 35mm camera. As 35mm provides larger image sizes MF cameras applications are reduced to very specific applications. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 30, 2009 Share #56 Posted August 30, 2009 ...but ir order to get more image size (MP) in medium format you have to pay 3 or 4 times the price of a "pro" 35mm camera. As 35mm provides larger image sizes MF cameras applications are reduced to very specific applications. I'm going to sound like Guy here, but do you have much experience of MF digital? My experience is limited to one day shooting it, but the opinion of someone I know who has shot it extensively - and whose opinion I trust on these matters - is that there is more to the dSLR/MF debate than the pixel count. Just as I can get a 10 mp camera for a few hundred Euros, or pay a few thousand for an M8, there's more to it than the number of pixels. The pixel count of a p&s and an M8 is the same, so by your logic the image quality must be comparable. Now we know that's not the case. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted August 30, 2009 Share #57 Posted August 30, 2009 Howard, You raise some valid points and I have to admit I was thinking of end user orders and not retailer's orders. The reason for my thinking was seeing Dave's ad appear here on occasion with the banner to pre-order the S2. The problem is dealer's pre-orders are even more meaningless since you don't know what kind of pressure Leica might bring to bear on dealers. For example, if an M9 or some other popular camera is about to be announced Leica could require that to order and sell the new "hot" item they have to also pre-order a certain number of S2s (say 2 each). Conversely that might be the requirement to stay a Leica dealer. I'm not sure how many US dealers they have but their dealer locator feature on their web site doesn't find any within 200 miles of me and I live within 50 miles of Los Angeles, CA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 30, 2009 Share #58 Posted August 30, 2009 For example, if an M9 or some other popular camera is about to be announced Leica could require that to order and sell the new "hot" item they have to also pre-order a certain number of S2s (say 2 each). Conversely that might be the requirement to stay a Leica dealer. The S2 is only being sold through selected dealers. It will not be available from all the existing Leica dealers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted August 30, 2009 Share #59 Posted August 30, 2009 The S2 is only being sold through selected dealers. It will not be available from all the existing Leica dealers. I have heard this before but is this true and not just another forum rumour. Is there an official S2 list of dealers from Leica AG? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 30, 2009 Share #60 Posted August 30, 2009 . I'm also discouraged by the fact that Leica has apparently turned its back on the 4/3 system -- I don't know whether because of disagreements with Panasonic, or because of a lack of research funding, or what. JC Well, Leica claims just because it is not good enough. I have a Digilux3 as a backup for my DMR and I tend to agree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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