Living with an M8 and M9 - the filter question

[chris_tribble]

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Let's assume that there's an M9 which is full frame, has framelines from 28-135 and doesn't require filters to render colour correctly (ok - that's a big IF, but I'm an optimist:)).

 

QUESTION: Are any list members with a better grasp of optics than me able to advise if it's going to be essential to remove / change filters if you're swapping lenses between an M8 and M9 body. I've always tended to have a protect filter on lenses as a default, so it's not worried me too much having to keep a filter on my lenses. It would worry me, however, if I had to keep on swapping or removing filters to run the two bodies in tandem.

 

I'm not going to be willing to commit the resources to getting two M9s, so will have to live with the 8+9 combination for a period...

 

Thoughts?

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QUESTION: Are any list members with a better grasp of optics than me able to advise if it's going to be essential to remove / change filters if you're swapping lenses between an M8 and M9 body.

 

Well, according to jaapv you kan keep the filter on at all focal lengths from 35mm upwards:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/95528-m9-some-more-reliable-news-2.html#post1002127

 

Below 35mm you will get cyan drift in the corners because of the angle of the light. I am going to test for the 35mm with my M6 some day, but it may take some time.

 

Lars had a post on exactly why this cyan drift appears, but I can't find it for the moment.

[Nicoleica]

Hi Chris,

 

If I understand correctly, leaving the filter on would cause a colour cast, more noticeable at the corners. But.... Hopefully Leica will have thought of this, and will keep the 'with filter' menu option, so that any effect could be negated in processing.

[jonoslack]

Hi Chris

there's a lot of IFs in there - but in the spirit of the question, I would have thought that for most purposes the advantage of two bodies is that you have a 'main' body (on which you change lenses a bit more) and a 'secondary' body - which tends to have a more standard focal length. (That's how I've always used my two M8 bodies).

 

I'm thinking I might keep a 75 'cron on an M8 body together with filters - good for close ups, where one doesn't usually need the extra resolution, and for portraits (ditto). Then keep most of the other lenses 'naked' for use on an M9

[marknorton]

Nothing to stop Leica building in filter correction in the M9 even if it doesn't need it to allow users to swap lenses from one camera to another.

 

That said, the cyan problems gets worse the wider you go and with a FF camera will be more severe for a given lens; the more severe, the more difficult to correct completely.

[erl]

I'm beginning to see the 'tenor' of the upcoming horror stories already , but I am confident that Leica will have anticipated all of them before we can commit them to keyboard. If they can solve the FF situation, they can solve the peripheral problems.

 

Like Chris, I will be waiting carefully for the 'solution' to the M8+M9 percieved problem, and for the same reason.

 

As a corollary to this anticipated event, it just so happens that I have sold some Real Estate recently and settlement takes place on 9/9/09! That puts a whole lotta 'spondooly' in my pocket. Geesh! I don't know what I should do with it!

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As a corollary to this anticipated event, it just so happens that I have sold some Real Estate recently and settlement takes place on 9/9/09! That puts a whole lotta 'spondooly' in my pocket. Geesh! I don't know what I should do with it!

 

I can email you my bank account number

[jaapv]

You certainly won't need to remove the IR filters for focal lengths of 50 mm upwards, in fact I find it preferable to use these filters even on cameras that are not as IR sensitive as the M8. I specifically bought 486 filters for use on the DMR. It gives a significantly better starting point for colour managing in my experience. Whether it will be needed to remove the filter for 35 will be a matter of experiment when and if the camera arrives.

[chris_tribble]

Thanks for comments thus far... Very interested to get a sense from forum members on what the potential is for a PLUS UV/IR cut filter correction option on the (hypothetical) M9. Does it seem feasible? Certainly desirable from my perspective...

[stunsworth]

Not removing the filter for 50mm may be ok for a cropped sensor like the M8, but if the M9 is full frame then might there not be problems with this focal length?

 

As Mark has said, correcting for colour shift may be more difficult with a full frame sensor, and not a route Leica want to go down.

 

Personally I wouldn't see removing the filter as an issue. I had to do it when I was using the same lenses to shoot b&w and colour at the same time.

[SJP]

I think you can use 35mm on the M8 without cyan correction in most but not all situations (white wall, clouds/sky), so for a FF M9 that would mean that 50mm and up is OK without cyan correction.

 

35mm + UV/IR on a FF M9 will require corner cyan adjustment and possibly sensor vignetting correction, same applies to less than 35mm lenses.

[dpattinson]

I'm pretty sure I saw vignetting on the M7 when I left the IR filter on my 35 lux. I was shooting black and white film, so I didn't see colour effect - but I suspect you would see some cyan with the 35 on a FF M9.

 

Of course, it should be eminently possible to correct for that in software. Hopefully a menu setting in the M9 if they have any sense.

[bill]

Me, I'll be dancing in the streets once the evolutionary dead-end that is the M8 has passed. I will be delighted to be able to swap lenses between M2, M7 and M9 with impunity.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[marknorton]

I think we should steel ourselves for the possibility that the camera may still the sensitive to IR. The sensor certainly will be, it's more a question of whether what they put in front of it can simultaneously filter IR and compensate for the sensor vignetting.

[stunsworth]

I think you can use 35mm on the M8 without cyan correction in most but not all situations (white wall, clouds/sky)...

 

I think it's lens dependant. There was a thread a week or so ago where I posted a shot with my uncoded 35mm pre-ASPH Summilux and there was no colour shift, even wide open. Someone else posted a shot from the current ASPH Summilux and the colour shift was very obvious. So I don't think it's possible to be categorical about this until the camera is released.

 

If the M9 requires filters, so be it. I'd prefer a camera that didn't, but I would be able to live with one that did.

[giordano]

Me, I'll be dancing in the streets once the evolutionary dead-end that is the M8 has passed. I will be delighted to be able to swap lenses between M2, M7 and M9 with impunity.

 

First hint I've seen that the M9 will have image stabilisation.

[bill]

First hint I've seen that the M9 will have image stabilisation.

 

You heard it here first!

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[jaapv]

I think you can use 35mm on the M8 without cyan correction in most but not all situations (white wall, clouds/sky), so for a FF M9 that would mean that 50mm and up is OK without cyan correction.

 

35mm + UV/IR on a FF M9 will require corner cyan adjustment and possibly sensor vignetting correction, same applies to less than 35mm lenses.

Contrary to all theory it seems to depend on lens design. My Nokton 35 was fine, my Summicron 35 asph shows very mild cyan drift in the corners.

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Contrary to all theory it seems to depend on lens design. My Nokton 35 was fine, my Summicron 35 asph shows very mild cyan drift in the corners.

 

Wouldn't that be because the lens elements are designed differently on those two lenses? Since the 35mm appearantly is on the limit when it comes to cyan drift, the design of the front elements of the lens comes into play?

[mjh]

Since the cyan drift (red vignetting) depends on the angle at which light passes the filter, it is difficult to imagine what difference the lens construction could possibly make. On the other hand, two nominally 35 mm lenses might have a slightly different actual focal length which might account for some slight difference in the amount of cyan drift observed.