Taking credit for M8 image capture

[erl]

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Russ, I think we pretty much in agreement on the ideas and merits of street and studio photogs. Both require real talent. As far as HCB goes, I will bow to your probably superior knowledge of him, but I am still a critic of some of his work. Regrettably, the only original work of his I have seen exhibited was a poor sampling of good work. The images tended to simply 'record' the subject and trade on the notoriety of same, as do many photogs today. However, confirming part of your comment, there were several (3) great images amongst his other (ordinary) work that I would have been proud to claim. I also think he would have to 'lift game' considerably from a technical POV today, to keep up, as his technical work was very sloppy - a printers nightmare in fact. But that is another whole topic and does not relate to his artistic ability.

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[erl]

Some of the preceding post have become too personal from a respect POV. I remind posters that such personal attacks are against forum rules. I will act if courtesy is not observed.

 

I am also inclined to move this thread to a more relevant forum when I return from walking the dog (more important). The intention is to improve 'user satisfaction' from observed and notified opinions. A grey area upon which I shall muse while walking the dog.

[Jamie Roberts]

So I think Erl hit it right on the head: besides the unconscious work to create a representation of a moment in street shooting (or event shooting at its best), you need to literally see the light. Light makes the greatest difference.

 

Heck, that's where a lens obsession really kicks in too. You need certain kinds of lenses in certain lights and other kinds of lenses for other moments

 

But seriously, it's quite an art to really see light and how it will translate graphically and is my one true obsession in the studio, in a church, or on a street. I've been trying to do this one thing better for years and years now.

 

Not to single any people out particularly, because there are tons of great photographers here, but when I have time to look at the People forum and see Imants' work, or Ivan A's (Azzo), or Han Borger's or Riccis'--among many, many others--well, it's clear to me that intelligence + light makes the moment and defines the gesture and creates the composition in a street shot. Luck might play a role in the moment itself, but chance, as they say, favours the prepared mind.

 

Further, as someone trained in the studio (and darkroom), I appreciate great studio work and the technical prowess needed to make art there. But in the studio, you at least have a lot of control of the light, and while a lot of effort sometimes goes into making it appear natural, it comes down to your ingenuity and control.

 

But in street work, the light is often harsh or confusing; it takes a keen and quick eye to see what's really there and the potential for expressing the moment in artistic ways, and then an even better eye to finish the print to artistic standards.

 

Thousands would walk past these...

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/people/95111-waiting-game.html

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/people/94054-heading-home.html

 

or not see this:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/people/28932-damian.html

 

or completely dismiss these (or not crop or process):

 

Imants Krumins

 

or wouldn't think about this:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/people/58553-wedding-landscape.html

[RSL]

Russ, I think we pretty much in agreement on the ideas and merits of street and studio photogs. Both require real talent. As far as HCB goes, I will bow to your probably superior knowledge of him, but I am still a critic of some of his work. Regrettably, the only original work of his I have seen exhibited was a poor sampling of good work. The images tended to simply 'record' the subject and trade on the notoriety of same, as do many photogs today. However, confirming part of your comment, there were several (3) great images amongst his other (ordinary) work that I would have been proud to claim. I also think he would have to 'lift game' considerably from a technical POV today, to keep up, as his technical work was very sloppy - a printers nightmare in fact. But that is another whole topic and does not relate to his artistic ability.

 

Erl, I think we're almost completely in agreement on HCB. His work changed when he started doing serious photojournalism -- and, in my estimation, lost something. It seems to me that was inevitable. You can't go out on a shoot where you MUST bring back results that satisfy what amounts to a shooting script -- even if the script is your own -- and expect everything to be top-notch art. And I agree that his technical work was sloppy. I don't think HCB ever bothered himself very much about that. Some of his best early work is out of focus and badly exposed, and yet the result is high art. As I'm sure you know, he didn't do his own printing, but he did have a very competent printer. I think the technical quality improved later on as the ratio of shots that could be called fine art declined. But, in the end, the man taught a couple generations of photographers the difference between photography and painting. He deserves credit from all of us for that.

[erl]

Russ, no argument with any of that, rather, total agreement.

 

 

And now I believe this thread should be moved to the more appropriate 'Customer Forum'.

 

See you all over there.

[Fotomiguel]

Henri Cartier Bresson. I can just smile reading this post. Would you compare Isaac Newtown to a today scientist... Would compare Velazquez to the best modern painter...

Henri Cartier Bresson understood how life goes by and he applied his wonderful tecnique (that he improved during his career) to capture it. For me the best of Henri Cartier Bresson was not the way he used his M camera, not the way he was able to transform what he saw in a image. The best of Cartier Bresson was his life. Plenty of history, interesting people and incredible events. The best photographer is a slave of his experiences. He used a M camera , because is the easiest way to capture thethe instant. I can improve my tecnique and photographic habilities, but if I don't improve my boring life, my pictures will be always boring.

The tricks he used with his camera can be used with a M8 or even better a M8.2 and If you learnt them you will improve your tecnique. The last low light trick from Cartier Bresson that I've discovered is incredible good.

If you learnt from him, you will enjoy much more street photography.

Regards

Miguel

[erl]

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Henri Cartier Bresson. I can just smile reading this post. Would you compare Isaac Newtown to a today scientist... Would compare Velazquez to the best modern painter...

Short answer, yes I possibly would; but I (and others) was not comparing HCB with anyone. Just commenting on the man's work. I believe the comments to be valid.

 

Henri Cartier Bresson understood how life goes by and he applied his wonderful tecnique (that he improved during his career) to capture it. For me the best of Henri Cartier Bresson was not the way he used his M camera, not the way he was able to transform what he saw in a image. The best of Cartier Bresson was his life. Plenty of history, interesting people and incredible events. The best photographer is a slave of his experiences. He used a M camera , because is the easiest way to capture thethe instant. I can improve my tecnique and photographic habilities, but if I don't improve my boring life, my pictures will be always boring.

The tricks he used with his camera can be used with a M8 or even better a M8.2 and If you learnt them you will improve your tecnique. The last low light trick from Cartier Bresson that I've discovered is incredible good.

If you learnt from him, you will enjoy much more street photography.

Regards

Miguel

 

No real disagreement here Miguel, but it is not the only path to acquiring skill and enjoyment. I for one (and I know others) have achieved a level of skill and certainly tremendous enjoyment from street (and other forms of photography) without worshipping at the feet (so to speak) of other photographers, past or present. I suspect that is also how HCB went about it but I may be wrong on that point.

 

Whatever our individual opinions, I think we are on 'the same tram', just sitting in different seats.

[scaryink]

The artists/ shutter clickers vision is paramount. I dont think an exciting life has much to do with creating great work.

 

JS Bach (arguably gods own greatest composer) lived the most sedentary, unassuming slow paced life.

 

Charles Ives (my favorite American composer) was an insurance salesman who happened to be one of the founders of the predecessor to Mutual of New York, lived a most sedate life with marital bliss.

 

Producing great work in any medium is at the feet of the person who is the creator/capturer. Photos of celebrities or the famous typically fade through time. It is interesting how many evoke the names of HCB or AA as if they are gods in the pantheon of photography. Of course some of their images are powerful, but there are many many others that are every bit as good and innovative, they just aren't famous. Why don't you become one of them? You can you know.

[scaryink]

Oh yes and Mod. What on earth does this post have anything to do with the named customer forum? This forum is far far removed from the original posting. Again, the application or "enforcement" of forum rules may best be described as Kafka-esque.

 

It may be interesting to experiment and move all the threads to unrelated forums to see what happens - just as a temporary social experiment.

 

I try to post in the forum closest to what I think it is about, but more often than not, am blasted for being in the wrong room. I honestly must say that in all the other forums that I frequent, this has never been a problem for me - ever.

 

Perhaps the owner may want to have a gander over at the Large format photography forum. They have many years of figuring this out and it really is a far more logical layout and easy to use.

[BerndReini]

I really don't care which forum my post is supposed to be in. I am with Scary. When I bring up a point of discussion, I want to argue it with the people I know - the folks right here in the M8 forum. Can't we freely decide whose opinion we want to hear?

[bill]

I really don't care which forum my post is supposed to be in. I am with Scary. When I bring up a point of discussion, I want to argue it with the people I know - the folks right here in the M8 forum. Can't we freely decide whose opinion we want to hear?

 

How narrow-minded do you want to be? The M8 ghetto is devoted to a single model. There are many who never go there. Would you close yourself to their opinions because they have no interest in the digicam?

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[dpattinson]

Really, why does this have to degenerate into a tendentious argument about which forum the post ought to be in?

 

Anyone can use the 'New Posts' link and scan the thread titles to find anything of interest. That's what I do, and personally I find it infinitely more irritating when threads get hijacked by pissing contests that overwhelm the original content I was interested in - based on the thread title...

[BerndReini]

Exactly, my friends. But we were not the ones that hijacked the thread in the first place. We were part of a good discussion that ABSOLUTELY had the M8 at heart and then turned into more than that. That's why it has to be moved? Give me a break. As far as being closed-off or narrow-minded: I use both film and digital, but I relate more to people on the M8 forum because the ones that shoot both are usually found here as well as people who only shoot digital, whereas the film forum does not let me reach a lot of people I want to reach. It's a free country, and I don't want to be narrow-minded at all. Film forum users are absolutely welcome to comment. It's just a matter of who I want to reach more easily. Who cares what the discussion evolves into after the initial topic has ben discussed.

 

Gosh, first Scary and I started arguing, now he's got me roped into a brawl on his behalf.

[Jamie Roberts]

How narrow-minded do you want to be? The M8 ghetto is devoted to a single model. There are many who never go there. Would you close yourself to their opinions because they have no interest in the digicam?

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

You seem to come to the M8 forum all the time, Bill, I have to say

 

I also kinda hate the customer forum in general, which is about (in my mind) buying things. Well, we're all customers, one way or another, and this *really* doesn't belong here.

 

This thread belongs in the digital rangefinder (M8) forum IMO where it started. Nothing narrow minded at all (or rather, how narrow minded to people have to be to dismiss the issues of working with the kit--the "digital rangefinder" as mentioned in the original post--not with film).

 

Just because the thread made its way to a general photographic point doesn't mean it shouldn't remain where it was.

 

BTW--please stop calling the M8 forum a ghetto. It's also absolutely not fair to characterize it that way; many of us use film and and frequent the photo forums; that said, I have no desire to discuss film processing or film cameras, which in Leica's case haven't changed in many years and in my view aren't core to my business or as difficult to use well technically (not artistically) .

 

When that changes, maybe we'll go there too

[erl]

Oh yes and Mod. What on earth does this post have anything to do with the named customer forum? This forum is far far removed from the original posting. Again, the application or "enforcement" of forum rules may best be described as Kafka-esque.

 

Well scary, it has as much to do with the Customer Forum as the M8 Forum, if one ignores the title, which does not reflect the content.

 

It may be interesting to experiment and move all the threads to unrelated forums to see what happens - just as a temporary social experiment.

Actually, "what happens" occurred before the thread was moved. Complaints were received, considered (see my post forecasting the event) and finally acted upon, based on the weight of evidence.

 

I try to post in the forum closest to what I think it is about, but more often than not, am blasted for being in the wrong room. I honestly must say that in all the other forums that I frequent, this has never been a problem for me - ever.

"Blasted" ..... indeed! You do have a jaundiced view of events. Your thread was simply moved to a more appropriate Forum, based on evidence and a re-directing marker left in its place. Settle down.

 

Perhaps the owner may want to have a gander over at the Large format photography forum. They have many years of figuring this out and it really is a far more logical layout and easy to use.

Perhaps you should spend more time there. That would be logical if it pleases you so much.

[erl]

I have now had a(nother) walk with the dog; my thinking time. I concluded as follows.

 

It is possible I was wrong in the decision I made to move the thread, but that is my job, to make decisions. I am afterall human and as prone to mistakes as anyone. Personally, I have absolutely no interest or care in which Forum any thread is posted. Mostly I only act upon (weight of) complaints and form my decision. Anyone who has a problem with this, does have a problem.

 

I considered moving the thread back to the M8 Forum and then realized that would only bring more howls of discontent from other directions. Of all things I am certain, "you can't please all the people all the time". So I propose and recommend that any objectors bypass me and go direct via PM to "admin" which is Andreas who is the final arbitor and owner of the Forum. I will accept without question any outcome he decides since I have no personal interest in whichever Sub forum this or any other thread resides. I hope that sheds some light on events; and now I intend to go gather some light with my camera in order that I may shed some more as required.

[BerndReini]

Hahaha, don't "flip-flop" or people are going to "swiftboat" you.

[erl]

Hahaha, don't "flip-flop" or people are going to "swiftboat" you.

 

Whatever amuses them. My only concern is to be reasonable, as I perceive it.

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[delander †]

These decisions are often not B&W. It is easy for a poster to put M8 into the title of a thread of more general interest to try and keep it in the M8 forum (or is it ghetto). The mods are aware of this little ruse!

 

A while ago I started a thread about who prints their M8 files, it stayed in the M8 forum but could just as easily have been in the digital forum etc.

 

Erl the fact that you are thinking about your decision weighing up the pros and cons indicates that to me you are an excellent mod. Your decision is made, it is not life and death.

 

Jeff