jonoslack Posted August 25, 2009 Share #21 Posted August 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) For digital M post production is a just few mouse clicks away. Do you think the level of skill needed to capture images with the kit is minimal? Yes it more than a fully automatic camera, but in the long run, not that much more. snip I love my M8 but often find shooting with LF, MF or M film cameras to be far more satisfying. I have a greater sense of accomplishment. HI There I think you're muddling up the artist with the artisan. Of course, it's best to be both, but not necessary. Personally I find that the extra 'accomplishment' of more complex kit (the artisan) usually compromises the small bit of artist in me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 Hi jonoslack, Take a look here Taking credit for M8 image capture. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Steve Pope Posted August 25, 2009 Share #22 Posted August 25, 2009 The problem with the original post is that it mixes too many concepts....digital vs film...street vs studio...35mm vs MF vs LF...etc. And has nothing specifically to do with either Leica or the M8. Wrong forum...as usual. (Scary knew that already.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted August 25, 2009 Share #23 Posted August 25, 2009 Just food for thought: I own a Hasselblad XPan and to some people, everything I shoot with the camera looks good. I used to feel like that about large format. You shoot o portrait with a large format camera in black and white and between the shallow depth of field and large dynamic range, it seemed almost impossible to me to take a bad photograph. Or take a super hot model and shoot her in a studio. How can you end up with a bad picture? Or a portrait of a celebrity. Now here is something that really drives me nuts: Nadav Kander, and no offense, I'm not saying that he is not a good photographer, cleaned out the ICP portraiture awards this year - with pictures of President Obama. Come on! What was being judged there? The photograph or the subject? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 25, 2009 Share #24 Posted August 25, 2009 And has nothing specifically to do with either Leica or the M8. Wrong forum...as usual. (Scary knew that already.) Yeah, I figured that was probably the case...having followed past provocation. But, I needed some entertainment on a slow day. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rono1 Posted August 25, 2009 Share #25 Posted August 25, 2009 I think that most people could probably take a mediocre, uninteresting street shot and they are free to take credit for it or not. But only a handful of talented photographers, with experience and a well-developed sense of visual impact can make a compelling and exceptional street photograph. And they damn well deserve the credit! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaryink Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share #26 Posted August 25, 2009 Just food for thought: I own a Hasselblad XPan and to some people, everything I shoot with the camera looks good. I used to feel like that about large format. You shoot o portrait with a large format camera in black and white and between the shallow depth of field and large dynamic range, it seemed almost impossible to me to take a bad photograph. Or take a super hot model and shoot her in a studio. How can you end up with a bad picture? Or a portrait of a celebrity. Now here is something that really drives me nuts: Nadav Kander, and no offense, I'm not saying that he is not a good photographer, cleaned out the ICP portraiture awards this year - with pictures of President Obama. Come on! What was being judged there? The photograph or the subject? Subject matter is an altogether different issue and I agree with your points. For me there sometimes is a feeling that the camera is doing the heavy lifting when street shooting with the great little M8. Its probably because my approach has far more to do with creating images from a blank slate with no composition, no means to capture or evoke an image other than with your own hand. I wonder if there is any such thing as alternative digital capture. Not emulation software but direct digit manipulation. The beauty of the ambrotype, van dyke or bromoil processes require a far greater involvment than the exercise of measure, look, and shoot. It may be that my eyes prefer a pictorialism approach that is closer to me personally than the hyper analytic ultra clean, germ free captures that the M8 is so very good at. I find that with the M8 I use tf more for reference or starting points for photographic painting at this point. Of course I have not come to close to the limits of the kits potential and suspect my viewpoint will be far different 10 years from now - when Im still shooting with the ancient M8. ") Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaryink Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share #27 Posted August 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) And has nothing specifically to do with either Leica or the M8. Wrong forum...as usual. (Scary knew that already.) Pope, glad to see your deep knowledge of Norse mythology. In the end I find that one troll looks just like another. May I suggest you actually contribute - or attempt to contribute to a discussion occasionally? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iansky Posted August 25, 2009 Share #28 Posted August 25, 2009 Having made my living as a PJ for a number of years I was always taught and tried to practice the art of pre-visualisation - being aware of your environment to include the people in that environment, the mood, weather, lighting and any events taking place that will impact the thoughts and in turn deeds of the individuals and as such look to see what is likely to occur & where then get there before it does. Sounds logical and straightforward but life doesn't work that way and without an element of luck the image can be missed. I have worked with formats from 10x8" down to 35mm and it's horses for courses so cannot be compared in general terms, you would not use a Large format to capture "street" at least not if the living individuals were the prime subjects. The M8 to me offers and encourages me to think more about my image due to the combination of rangefinder focusing and manual controls, this I find takes me back to grass root photography rather than todays auto everything point and shoot world where the majority of people with cameras are not looking at the true image but attracted by the ease of use of digital and what they perceive will be a good image that the camera will produce for them - rather than them producing an image with the camera as the end tool! How times have changed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted August 25, 2009 Share #29 Posted August 25, 2009 Russ, I think you have made your observations too narrow. By apparently excluding 'studio photogs' from the creative talent you are completely wrong. I work both street and studio, and other areas as well. The creative moment, encompassing instinctive and spontaneous reaction is not the preserve of street photographers alone. If you have ever tried a shoot of a young child in an 'intimidating studio', you would realize the 'money shot' appears for but an instant, if at all. You can't re-run the event. It is the definition of an oxymoron. It is both in control and out of control. OTOH, it could be said, with some truth, that street shooting has to be easier because anyone can practice it for ever and will probably develop some skill at it, eventually. However, we all know that 'mountains of rubbish' abound in the street genre, while but a few images may rate as worthy. But of course we also know that 'worthy' is also in the eye of the beholder. On the HCB reference, I don't think he would survive today. He had an almost exclusive domain in his time, and did well for those times. Today, IMO, he would be be swamped by surrounding talent and would be just one of the pack. Purely a consequence of circumstance. There! That should bring a few rabbits out of their burrows. Erl, Actually, I intended that both quotations be read together. If you read the second quotation independently it sounds as if I'm not giving studio photogs their due, but that's not my intention at all. Let me say it again: If you're going to succeed with street photography you MUST develop an instinctive response to what you see in the viewfinder. Street photograph requires at least as much decision making as does studio photography. But the decisions have to be made unconsciously and instantaneously. It's easy to go out and shoot pictures of people on the street, just as it's easy to shoot pictures of a kid in a studio. But to create something worthwhile it's not that easy. In the case of the kid in a studio, the kid's not going away until you've at least got something printable as a "money shot," even though it may not be as great as you'd like it to be. On the street you rarely get a second shot. As far as mountains of rubbish are concerned: Yes, almost anyone can develop a technical skill with enough practice, but that's not the same thing as being able to produce art. Mountains of rubbish exist in any genre -- poetry, painting, music, photography. You name it. There are millions of technically skilled people out there adding to the mountains every day. Actually, I think HCB's later work failed to keep up with his early stuff. As far as I'm concerned, his book "The People of Moscow," for instance, isn't HCB in top form. No one can produce as many photographs as HCB produced and maintain the level of excellence he showed in his early work. But "survive today?" He'd survive. The man was an artist, and the one or two stunning photographs per year he'd produce still would out-class most of the "surrounding talent." But none of what either of us has said supports the OP's statement: "There is fundamentally little in the way of decision making to capture scenes and actions of others." The OP really should try it before he passes judgment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted August 25, 2009 Share #30 Posted August 25, 2009 And has nothing specifically to do with either Leica or the M8. Wrong forum...as usual. (Scary knew that already.) Really? A discussion about photography has nothing to do with the Leica or the M8? That's certainly an interesting point of view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted August 25, 2009 Share #31 Posted August 25, 2009 For me there sometimes is a feeling that the camera is doing the heavy lifting when street shooting with the great little M8. I would disagree with that. This holds true more for an automatic point-and-shoot or DSLR. The M8 only does exactly what I make it do and only when I actually do it. The only auto function the M8 has, and it is very useful at that is the automatic shutter speed selection. I use painting as a reference for my street photography, Max Beckmann's expressionist paintings in particular, and I choose my subject matter and lighting carefully to approximate his style. If you have a second, please take a look at my website. The M8 is a great tool, but not a street photography robot. http://www.berndreinhardt.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 25, 2009 Share #32 Posted August 25, 2009 The often terrific street shots on this site could have been taken with an M8 or an M6, or whatever...who cares? iN-PUBLiC | Photographers Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Pope Posted August 25, 2009 Share #33 Posted August 25, 2009 Really? A discussion about photography has nothing to do with the Leica or the M8? That's certainly an interesting point of view. You misquoted - nothing specifically to do with Leica or the M8. Not every single philosophical musing on photography is usefully germane to the M8. Anyway, the motive behind the thread seems more about testing the moderators' consistency in having it moved...or not. It's a game. Another self-indulgent teasing of arbitrary sub-forum boundaries which the OP feels denies him the largest audience. Perhaps you missed the previous provocations, of which this is the latest variant? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 25, 2009 Share #34 Posted August 25, 2009 Really? A discussion about photography has nothing to do with the Leica or the M8? That's certainly an interesting point of view. Hardly. It just belongs out of the M8 ghetto in the wider world because it is as you say a discussion about photography and is not specific to the digicam. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 25, 2009 Share #35 Posted August 25, 2009 I think that most people could probably take a mediocre, uninteresting street shot and they are free to take credit for it or not. But only a handful of talented photographers, with experience and a well-developed sense of visual impact can make a compelling and exceptional street photograph. And they damn well deserve the credit! Exactly! Credit is given, not taken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaryink Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share #36 Posted August 25, 2009 You misquoted - nothing specifically to do with Leica or the M8. Not every single philosophical musing on photography is usefully germane to the M8. Anyway, the motive behind the thread seems more about testing the moderators' consistency in having it moved...or not. It's a game. Another self-indulgent teasing of arbitrary sub-forum boundaries which the OP feels denies him the largest audience. Perhaps you missed the previous provocations, of which this is the latest variant? Would you explain how a discussion about street shooting with the M8 translates into a discussion about my viewing audience? I respectfully request you stop hijacking virtually every thread I participate in. I don't know, have never met you, have never seen a photo of or by you and frankly have no idea what you have against me personally. It is true that I don't speak troll however. You may want to try one of the translator programs to convert from Nordic troll to English. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaryink Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share #37 Posted August 25, 2009 Exactly! Credit is given, not taken. A five word sentence full of meaning. Very salient to the overall discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 25, 2009 Share #38 Posted August 25, 2009 A five word sentence full of meaning. Very salient to the overall discussion. So, I guess I didn't have it fully thought out...the post is really about: 1. street vs studio; 2. 35mm vs MF vs LF; 3. digital vs film; and, 4. taking vs giving credit. Now I get it. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Pope Posted August 25, 2009 Share #39 Posted August 25, 2009 Pope...I find that one troll looks just like another...I respectfully request you stop hijacking virtually every thread I participate in...you may want to try one of the translator programs to convert from Nordic troll to English. You seem to want a forum where you can talk generally about your ideas on photography - hey, no crime there. But you have decided unilaterally it's to be this one, even if you consistently have to play agent provocateur in order to foment changes to the M8 forum's remit, or get down and dirty with 'trolls' who demur at what you're up to. What's wrong with the Bar - anything goes there? Or any other number of forums out there? Or starting your own? Are you sure it's not you who's doing the hijacking? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted August 25, 2009 Share #40 Posted August 25, 2009 Exactly! Credit is given, not taken. Bingo! Right on the money, Jaap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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