Dealer's response to order cancel.

[larry]

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Alex,

 

I'd send them an e-mail with link to this thread. Maybe that will help convince them that the cost benefit of keeping your deposit doesn't really add up.

 

Best of luck,

Larry

[earleygallery]

There's a few points here;

 

1) The item is acknowledged to be faulty. Are they confirming that you will receive a fully functional version that won't require further attention/recall?

 

2) Leica - it has been stated in other threads - have said anyone who is unhappy can have a refund. I would report this dealer to Leica UK immediately. Whilst your contract is with the dealer, not Leica, they have an obligation to ensure that the dealers meet their standards.

 

3) Raise a dispute with your credit card company. They will have to investigate the matter whatever.

 

4) Check the terms on which you made the deposit. Is there a contract of some sort? Does it state that the deposit is non refundable?

 

5) Ulitmate recourse is legal, small claims. Given all the issues I think you would have a case. It isn't simply a fact of cancelling an order for no good reason. There is much on this forum to support your case!

 

6) I'd also point Classic Camera to this thread.

 

Good luck

[ade909]

Alex, I would take the camera and then ebay it, you'll definitely lose less than 10% andmay even make a profit, especially if the out of the box experience is "as new".

 

No need to lose money on ebay - the UK Sale of Goods Act would almost certainly give Alex the right to return it to the dealer for a full refund on the basis that it is "unfit for purpose". It's less clear whether that applies to the deposit before the camera has changed hands. No doubt his solicitor will advise in detail.

 

Ade

[nick0137]

You have paid a deposit. Unless it was made expressly clear to you at the time that you paid the deposit that it would be non-refundable then you are clearly entitled to have it returned.

 

That conclusion follows from the nature of a deposit in the context of an agreement between you and a camera shop for the future sale and purchase of a camera. It is not the same as a deposit in a property purchase, which is an advance part payment of the purchase price of a property that the vendor already owns and has contracted to sell you and which you have (subject to the usual searches etc being satisfactory) agreed to purchase. In that context, if you fail to complete the purchase when required to do so by the vendor, he will be entitled to forfeit the deposit if that is what the contract provides.

 

Your situation is different. As I understand it, the shop has no M8 to sell (in the sense of hand over the counter) to you at the moment. So the shop cannot yet call on you to complete your part of the contract to pay the full purchase price. In those circumstances, you are entitled to elect not to wait until the shop can complete and, rather, to ask for your deposit back. At most, the shop is entitled to damages for the loss it will suffer as the result of you not, at some time in the future, purchasing an M8. Since, however, there is a waiting list for M8s as long as your arm, there is no measurable loss.

 

Put shortly, this is a marginally dishonest try on. And, despite the law often being an ass, you should insist on repayment. If I were you I'd be in the shop now discussing the fine points of legal analysis above and asking them how much a new plate glass window costs. Velvet glove, iron fist still works.

 

PS Should have said. I've got an M8 and am keeping it.

[kidigital]

This is a great example that illustrates how negative customer complaints can so vividly color product/brand/retailer perceptions. Even though the dealer may have an excellent record/reputation with a majority of its customers and with this particular customer in regard to previous transactions, a negative complaint can quickly shift the perceptions of the product/brand/retailer fairly or unfairly. The speed, pervasiveness and bitterness of any slighted customer (in the age of the internet) can cripple a company/personal/retailer reputation.

 

I can't remember the exact statistics. But customers with positive product/service experiences tend to relate their experiences much less often and with much less passion than those that have negative experiences. The M8 introduction and the response on this forum is a great case study...especially watching those that feel the most slighted spread their negative experiences.

 

Kurt

[paul_t]

In similar situations, I've found my credit card company most helpful and can't think of an instance when, faced with documentary evidence, they haven't refunded my money.

 

Leica themselves admit that the camera does not meet their customers' expectations; I find it hard to believe that, once the charge is disputed, Classic Camera would try and retain your money. As others have noted, it's ludicrously short-sighted of them...

[M'Ate]

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I bought an M7 from Classic Camera recently.

 

Their sale conditions mirror the UK Sale of Goods Act and allow for the return of goods within 28 days of purchase.

 

I asked to return the M7 which just had Test Camera Great britain stamped on the top plate. He coughed a little and said no problem. He didn't want it back for sure and in spite of telling me that it was a sought after item and would go within 24 hours if I didn't buy it, it's still for sale 2 months after.

 

If you take it and return it, I suspect he will have no option to give you a full refund under his T&C's. However, I don't know your position if he claims that this was to special order, bought for you. Hmmmn.

 

Leica appears to be taking a hard line. Maybe the refunds will embarrass them.

 

For others who are yet to order, the camera performance is now well known and claiming it is faulty will be difficult - you knew, why did you buy it?

[earleygallery]

Not the first time Classic Camera have been mentioned on this forum for poor customer service. It's certainly put me off dealing with them.

[johnll]

If the UK has small claims courts, I'd imagine you will cause them much more expense to defend than it will cost you to lodge a complaint. That would be true here, anyway.

[alexr]

Thank-you to all for your responses. I still cannot believe it, considering there is a waiting list for the camera (so they can sell mine, which they don't even have as yet, to someone else) and, most importantly, that i have spent thousands and thousands in their shop over the years. Plus the fact that first they said ok, then no. I am baffled and will report on what happens next.

[biglouis]

This is fascinating. I actually teach this exact point to my Year 10 Business Studies class (e.g. 15 year olds) when they are evaluating the pro's and con's of setting up an internet business. A major 'con' is that there may be 'hostile' publicity in chat rooms - something this shop and Leica are currently experiencing.

 

I'm afraid this attitude is illustrative of why estimates of online business continue to grow and 'outternet' retailers are feeling very threatened at the moment.

 

LouisB

[jrgeoffrion]

Thank-you to all for your responses. I still cannot believe it, considering there is a waiting list for the camera (so they can sell mine, which they don't even have as yet, to someone else) and, most importantly, that i have spent thousands and thousands in their shop over the years. Plus the fact that first they said ok, then no. I am baffled and will report on what happens next.

 

I wish you the best of luck. In the US, a deposit is exactly that, a deposit. If the good is not delivered, the deposit must be refunded. That's why wedding photographers such as myself charge a retainer and not a deposit. The retainer is against a service (the booking of a specific date in the future). Legally, if a wedding photographer writes "non refundable deposit", it will not hold up in court in the US.

[gravastar]

Thank-you to all for your responses. I still cannot believe it, considering there is a waiting list for the camera (so they can sell mine, which they don't even have as yet, to someone else) and, most importantly, that i have spent thousands and thousands in their shop over the years. Plus the fact that first they said ok, then no. I am baffled and will report on what happens next.

 

I suspect they are very scared. I believe they had a very bad experience when people cancelled and asked for deposits back when the DMR was repeatedly delayed. Can you imagine the capital outlay required if everyone asked for their deposits to be returned. Not only that but loss of future revenue from cancelled orders. I don't however condone their current attitude.

 

I've always viewed a deposit as as a test to ensure a prospective purchaser is serious and as a means to prevent orders with multiple dealers. A much more satisfactory approach would be for the deposit to be placed in bond that is returnable if the product doesn't materialise.

 

Bob.

[bill]

Sadly, this thread does not surprise me.

 

I am one of those who have commented on The Classic Camera previously. I have only bought from them once, and that when I had no other alternative. I was under no illusions that offering me a positive customer experience was a long way from their thoughts.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[M'Ate]

Plus the fact that first they said ok, then no. I am baffled and will report on what happens next.

Suspect that they wanted to oblige and checked with Solms. For whatever reason, Solms is not allowing the dealer to cancel, leaving him in the middle with stock that is 'under discussion'.

 

The indication that a statement will be forthcoming on Monday gives real hope. I'm bored with predictions and want to read facts. Roll on Monday.

[craigrmurray]

Alex, I'm with Mark -- just buy it and either put it on eBay, or find another forum member who would probably be glad to buy it.

[alexr]

Alex, I'm with Mark -- just buy it and either put it on eBay, or find another forum member who would probably be glad to buy it.

You know what i think might happen then, they would say "But Sir, you have cancelled your order. If you want to get back in the que, it's another 10%!!"

[stunsworth]

I was in there a few days ago, and all the guy could do is brag how many more M8s Leica UK would be shipping him than any other dealer in the country, and how I should give him my 10% deposit now, because regardless of how long other dealers lists were, he would be able to supply me quicker. I didn't care for his attitude, and left without putting a desposit down. I have deposits at other locations, and in each case they told me it was fully refundable.....

 

Oddly enough this was more of less what I was told when I rang them a couple of weeks ago.

 

I'm really suprised at them refusing the delivery since I would imagine they would have no problems whatsoever selling the camera to another buyer.

[John Maio]

I paid $250USD in cash back in September and then, when I picked it up, the balance was paid on a charge card. When I returned the camera, the dealer first had to ask "permission" from Leica. I presumed this was so that he wouldn't be stuck with it in his inventory. Leica agreed to accept the return; they had their M8 back and I had my money back.

 

Interestingly, he returned my deposit in cash.

 

Than was a week ago - much water has flowed under the bridge since. I am convinced I did the right thing.

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[blovitch]

My experience of the dealer in question was less than favourable.

 

They shipped me an R lens that was described as Mint. I discussed the lens on the phone with the gent who assured me it was optically perfect.

 

When it arrived there was huge amount of fungus (covering around 10mm sqr) right behind the front element. There then followed a fair amount of "telephone tennis" until the situation was resolved with a refund.

 

I have now found another UK Leica dealer who is Frank, honest and a pleasure to deal with.