Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 19, 2009 Share #81 Posted August 19, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Which brings up is the DR the same as a separate back. My guess 1/2 stop short than the Dalsa chip.I can tell you the P40+ and P65+ the DR is better than my P30+ by about 1/2 a stop. Not the same tech as the new Kodak chip but the 14 bit may be the underlining factor. But this is where I get off the bus and ask questions to the engineers. I know my limits. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Hi Guest guy_mancuso, Take a look here S2 and Leica's list of sins. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tgray Posted August 19, 2009 Share #82 Posted August 19, 2009 Not that I am ever going to purchase, touch, or even see an S2, but I think the whole 'individual lens profiles stored in the lens' is a killer feature on it. I've seen some questions on the net asking whether not micro-focus adjustments are available, and the questioners don't quite get that they won't be needed. I thought I read that they can even take into account aperture dependent focus shift, but I might be wrong... Also, from what I've read, the optical design of each lens takes into account IR filter and sensor cover. I don't know of any other manufacturer who's done this at this point in time, since even though most photographers use digital, most camera systems aimed at photographers are still film based. The S2 isn't. There is the chance that this thing could be quite amazing because it's designed from the ground up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 19, 2009 Share #83 Posted August 19, 2009 The digital-lenses from Rodenstock/Schneider take the cover glass into account but it's more important there because of the oblique light rays with the WA-lenses. DR should be judged from the final files, not from marketing claims like 16bit-files (without telling what ADC is actually used - even Leica gave this information to David Farkas, not in the technical data). A 14bit-ADC by Analog Devices seemed fine for most DMR-users... The Maestro-processor was developed by Fujitsu and is exclusive for Leica - Fujitsu isn't allowed to sell the Maestro to Phase or Hasselblad. The Sigma SD14 uses a Fujitsu-processor, but an old generation which has nothing to do with the Maestro (it's developement hasn't even started when the SD14 came out).. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted August 19, 2009 Share #84 Posted August 19, 2009 A 14bit-ADC by Analog Devices seemed fine for most DMR-users... The DMR is 16 bit actually... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 19, 2009 Share #85 Posted August 19, 2009 "The DMR is 16 bit actually..." Where does it say so? We're talking about the ADC, not the internal image processing (which is 16bit with DMR/M8/S2, as written in the technical data). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 19, 2009 Share #86 Posted August 19, 2009 "The DMR is 16 bit actually..." Where does it say so? We're talking about the ADC, not the internal image processing (which is 16bit with DMR/M8/S2, as written in the technical data). Analog Devices has a pdf circulating around detailing the model number of the Blackfin DSP DMR used and the 16 bit ADC etc but I can't find it now. The S2's 14 bit ADC is a major step back in this regard ... there's no denial to it. Regarding Maestro, Dr. Kaufmann has gone on the record saying it's based on a shared platform being used for cell phones etc. you could check LFI for that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 19, 2009 Share #87 Posted August 19, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Camera/Camcorder Analog Front Ends | Audio/Video Products | Analog Devices Where's the 16bit ADC? You need data to "fill" these bits with information. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 19, 2009 Share #88 Posted August 19, 2009 Not that I am ever going to purchase, touch, or even see an S2, but I think the whole 'individual lens profiles stored in the lens' is a killer feature on it. That's actually a pretty bad thing, in other words, all future sensor assembly designs has to conform with the lens profiles and they're different. You're betting that all future sensors will have the exact same response to the lens profile today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 19, 2009 Share #89 Posted August 19, 2009 Camera/Camcorder Analog Front Ends | Audio/Video Products | Analog Devices Where's the 16bit ADC? You need data to "fill" these bits with information. For goodness' sake, you're looking under audio/video category, do you need me to teach you how to surf the web? A/D Converters | Analog to Digital Converters | Analog Devices There are even 24 bit ADCs. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted August 19, 2009 Share #90 Posted August 19, 2009 Considering 12 stops of dynamic range, and 1 to 2 stops affected by noise... 14 bits seems to be enough. Going for 16 bits adds tonal detail description capabilities to the highlight stops... where you don't need it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgray Posted August 19, 2009 Share #91 Posted August 19, 2009 That's actually a pretty bad thing, in other words, all future sensor assembly designs has to conform with the lens profiles and they're different. You're betting that all future sensors will have the exact same response to the lens profile today. Well, you send the lens back and they reprofile it. Anyway, its profiling things like focus shift, aperture variation, things like that. As long as they keep putting the sensor in the same place (which they are required to do due to the flange distance and focal length of the lenses), it should be fine. What's bad? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 19, 2009 Share #92 Posted August 19, 2009 Considering 12 stops of dynamic range, and 1 to 2 stops affected by noise... 14 bits seems to be enough. Going for 16 bits adds tonal detail description capabilities to the highlight stops... where you don't need it. But then, why do Hassy and Phase keep using 16-bit? they could choose 14 bit and speed up the machine too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 19, 2009 Share #93 Posted August 19, 2009 Well, you send the lens back and they reprofile it. Anyway, its profiling things like focus shift, aperture variation, things like that. As long as they keep putting the sensor in the same place (which they are required to do due to the flange distance and focal length of the lenses), it should be fine. What's bad? What if you plan to use the same lens between the S2 and a S3? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted August 19, 2009 Share #94 Posted August 19, 2009 What if you plan to use the same lens between the S2 and a S3? Um, I think you're over-thinking this. If a given lens has optical information *about the lens* stored in the lens, that's just an extension of EXIF information... "optical metadata" can tell you all kinds of things about the lens. What the S2 and a future S3 do with that data is up to the computer inside of them. Both of them should "do the right thing" based on the profile. IOW, it's not like you're matching your lens to an individual body only. It's just that the body is smart enough to take into account some of the variances within each system lens. As for the filter and sensor tweaks in the lens design, they may be global, non-sensor specific changes that neverthelss apply to all (or a whole class) of digital sensors (like the presence of an IR filter on the sensor). I don't think you'd necessarily need to send the lens back in unless there was a "class" change at the sensor level. No? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
t024484 Posted August 19, 2009 Share #95 Posted August 19, 2009 Considering 12 stops of dynamic range, and 1 to 2 stops affected by noise... 14 bits seems to be enough. Going for 16 bits adds tonal detail description capabilities to the highlight stops... where you don't need it. You have hit the nail on the head. A sensor with 12 stops dynamic range, only needs a converter to cover this range of 72 dB. A 14 bit ADC will be able to fully satisfy this need, even if it has its imperfections. The point where noise is getting to become annoying, is at higher values of ISO settings. Here it is where the ADC vastly outperforms the dynamic range of the sensor. So 16 bits is something that sounds better as 14 bits, but it does not add to anything at all. Hans Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 19, 2009 Share #96 Posted August 19, 2009 "For goodness' sake, you're looking under audio/video category, do you need me to teach you how to surf the web? A/D Converters | Analog to Digital Converters | Analog Devices There are even 24 bit ADCs. LOL" You're not serious, are you? I'm not a specialist for electronics, but even I know that many aspects play a role choosing the right ADC. You cannot just pick any ADC you'll like because of the sample rate and put it in a digital camera! But what a "Leica-fanboy" as me says doesn't matter anyway, Leica simply chose the wrong ADC because like me, they needed you to teach them how to surf the web... I'll shut up until the first new information is out, maybe someone else has the patience/knowledge to explain the ADC-problem to you. By they way, the ADCs aren't the limiting speed-factor in Hassi/Phase-Cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 19, 2009 Share #97 Posted August 19, 2009 Phase P40+ Imaging technology Lens Factor 1.3 Resolution 40 megapixels Active pixels 7320 x 5484 pixels CCD size effective 44 mm x 33 mm Pixel size 6 x 6 micron Image ratio 4:3 Dynamic range 12.5 f-stops P 40+ full resolution capture mode Resolution 40 megapixels Pixel size 6 x 6 micron RAW file compression IIQ large: 40 MB IIQ small: 26 MB ISO 50, 100, 200, 400, 800 Sensor + capture mode Resolution 10 megapixels Pixel size 12 x 12 micron RAW file compression IIQ large: 10 MB IIQ small: 7 MB ISO 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200 Output files Color depth 16 bit per color Image file formats All output formats of Capture One are possible: TIFF-RGB, TIFF-CMYK, JPEG Color management RGB, Embedded ICC profile, CMYK Hassy 50 back FEATURES H3DII-31 H3DII-39 H3DII-50 Sensor size 31 Mpixels (4872x6496 pixels) 39 Mpixels (5412x7212 pixels) 50 Mpixels (6132x8176 pixels) Sensor dimensions 33.1x44.2 mm 36.8x49.1 mm 36.8x49.1 mm Pixel size 6.8μm 6.8μm 6.0μm Image size RAW 3FR capture 40 MB on average. TIFF 8 bit: 93 MB RAW 3FR capture 50 MB on average. TIFF 8 bit: 117 MB RAW 3FR capture 65 MB on average. TIFF 8 bit: 150 MB RAW file format Lossless compressed Hasselblad 3FR Shooting mode Single shot Color definition 16 bit ISO speed range ISO 100, 200, 400, 800 and 1600 ISO 50, 100, 200, 400 and 800 ISO 50, 100, 200, 400 and 800 Storage options CF card type U-DMA (e.g. SanDisk extreme IV) or tethered to Mac or PC Sensor size 31 Mpixels (4872x6496 pixels) 39 Mpixels (5412x7212 pixels) 50 Mpixels (6132x8176 pixels) Sensor dimensions 33.1x44.2 mm 36.8x49.1 mm 36.8x49.1 mm Color management Hasselblad Natural Color Solution CF storage capacity 2 GB CF card holds 50 images on average 2 GB CF card holds 40 images on average 2 GB CF card holds 30 images on average Capture rate 1.2 seconds per capture 42 captures per minute 1.4 seconds per capture 39 captures per minute 1.1 seconds per capture 33 captures per minute Color display Yes, 3 inch TFT type, 24 bit color, 230 400 pixels Histogram feedback Yes IR filter Mounted on CCD sensor Acoustic feedback Yes Software, included Phocus for Mac and Windows Platform support Macintosh: OSX version 10.5. Windows: XP (32 and 64 bit), Vista (32 and 64 bit) Host connection type FireWire 800 (IEEE1394b) View camera compatibility Yes, Mechanical shutters controlled via flash sync. Electronic shutters can be controlled from Phocus. Operating temperature 0 - 45 ˚C / 32 - 113 ˚F Dimensions Complete camera w. HC80 mm lens: 153 x 131 x 213 mm [W x H x D] Weight 2290 g (Complete camera w. HC80 mm lens, Li-Ion battery and CF card) Hassy and Phase are 16 and that is all I know on the subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted August 19, 2009 Share #98 Posted August 19, 2009 "The DMR is 16 bit actually..." Where does it say so? We're talking about the ADC, not the internal image processing (which is 16bit with DMR/M8/S2, as written in the technical data). Correct, 16 bit ADC as specified by Leica's specs on the DMR, I've had to point this out to many who made the same assumption. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 19, 2009 Share #99 Posted August 19, 2009 A sensor with 12 stops dynamic range, only needs a converter to cover this range of 72 dB Hans, The DALSA sensor in H3D-60 and P40+/P65+ has 74db dynamic range, which translates into about 12.5 stops so 16 bit ADC clearly has its advantages. The Kodak sensor in S2 only has 70db DR (about 11.7 stops) so perhaps as you say, 14 bit is enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 19, 2009 Share #100 Posted August 19, 2009 The P40 and P65+ is rated at 12.5 which is better than my 12 stop rated P30+ which I stated above. Which I can tell from the files it is, the Dalsa sensor has a little extra DR to them. That's not marketing sorry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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