S2 and Leica's list of sins

[lxlim]

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Thank you Guy. I have been shooting for 30 years from Pentax to Nikon to Arca-Swiss to Leica to Rollei to Canon to etc etc. and what I have learned is that all systems have their assets and their liabilities. I am primarily a studio shooter and have rented/used/or owned pretty much everything. The thing I have learned is that the best equipment is useless if the company goes out of business or abandons it's past. You know the history if you go down my list so I don't need to recite the dead ends to you. So, after many months waiting for the R10 and many more months researching MF (then finding out about the S2) I waited for Leica's announcement on price and specs. The S2 may have great lenses. It may have tremendous waterproofing. But what it doesn't have, that I absolutely require, is a general sense that it will be around in 4-5 years. I no longer believe that as a given. Hassy - I feel pretty safe with them. I have not ruled out the S2 totally. But Leica has done nothing over the last 2 years to convince me that they care about their existing customers. And in this economy, if you don't care about your customers, you will die.

 

That's a good yardstick to go by especially with MF and pro equipment. I have experienced several dead ends myself. Not the companies going bust but the dealerships. I'm from Singapore so shipping overseas for repair and maintenance is not what a pro wants for service.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Pick a good dealer they really can save your you know what.

[pascal_meheut]

. But Leica has done nothing over the last 2 years to convince me that they care about their existing customers

 

You mean besides offering constant firmware upgrade for the M8 and solving most of the issues? Offering a shutter and viewfinder upgrade?

Designing an M8 which is one of the most "old lenses" compatible digital camera of the market?

And saying that even if they stop the R, they will still offer a solution to keep the use of the lenses?

 

BTW, when Canon switched from FD to Eos, what did they do for L glasses owner?

What about Blad when they launched a new System?

And did not Nikon changed their flash system each time a new body is launched, or a new version of their 80-200/70-200 5 times at least already?

What did they say to the pros who had D2X+12-24+17-55 and had changed their lenses for APS format? "Oh, we said we would stick with APS-C and that FF was not in our plans". 1 year later, here comes the D3. Please, change your lenses again...

 

I do not think that Leica is as respectful of its customers as it should be. But this is not a black&white situation.

[lxlim]

Pick a good dealer they really can save your you know what.

 

The problem is even good dealers might go bust. The last 15 years for me was like changing systems every three years, very debilitating.

 

Lights - Balcar > Lumedyne > Elinchrom > currently Profotos

 

Good thing no Broncolors I would have really broken my knuckles in frustration.

 

For cameras, Rollei was the only heartbreak. I rarely used my Mamiya, my clients preferred the Sinar. So when the recessions took toll and the clients went bust, I sold the Sinar and went Canon D30, LOL

 

Weren't a bad thing. I actually enjoyed my photography more.

[pierovitch]

Guy may sound critical, but from a pro perspective you should be looking for things that might get in the way in the heat of an assignment. Your reputation depends on your results. Equipment deficiencies are not an excuse. Digital equipment is not as reliable and does not deteriorate gracefully. Digital camera errors usually leave you with a useless lump. so pro standards should be.

 

1. Reliability (only my M3 has never failed)

2. No areas of sub professional performance.

3. Instantly available backup. (owned or hired)

4. Fast service turnaround or hire service so you still have a backup for the next job.

5. Leaving a profit margin.

 

It's about making a living.

 

How often have you heard of Uncle getting praise for a great shot at the wedding and the Pro getting scorn for one that was not better out of a few hundred?

[lxlim]

Guy may sound critical, but from a pro perspective you should be looking for things that might get in the way in the heat of an assignment. Your reputation depends on your results. Equipment deficiencies are not an excuse. Digital equipment is not as reliable and does not deteriorate gracefully. Digital camera errors usually leave you with a useless lump. so pro standards should be.

 

1. Reliability (only my M3 has never failed)

2. No areas of sub professional performance.

3. Instantly available backup. (owned or hired)

4. Fast service turnaround or hire service so you still have a backup for the next job.

5. Leaving a profit margin.

 

It's about making a living.

 

How often have you heard of Uncle getting praise for a great shot at the wedding and the Pro getting scorn for one that was not better out of a few hundred?

 

Agreed.

 

And Uncle does deserve the praise for doing so The Pro has to work hard for his money or the budget goes to the honeymoon and Uncle gets the job, LOL.

[rosuna]

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You mean besides offering constant firmware upgrade for the M8 and solving most of the issues? Offering a shutter and viewfinder upgrade?

Designing an M8 which is one of the most "old lenses" compatible digital camera of the market?

And saying that even if they stop the R, they will still offer a solution to keep the use of the lenses?

 

BTW, when Canon switched from FD to Eos, what did they do for L glasses owner?

What about Blad when they launched a new System?

And did not Nikon changed their flash system each time a new body is launched, or a new version of their 80-200/70-200 5 times at least already?

What did they say to the pros who had D2X+12-24+17-55 and had changed their lenses for APS format? "Oh, we said we would stick with APS-C and that FF was not in our plans". 1 year later, here comes the D3. Please, change your lenses again...

 

I do not think that Leica is as respectful of its customers as it should be. But this is not a black&white situation.

 

I also had my problems with the M8 and M lenses, but I agree, this is not a B&W situation. I have observed that they try to improve and were worried by the problems.

[plevyadophy]

As well as all the issues others have with the announced spec of the S2, I think there is another issue for this cam, and that is its hybrid nature.

 

To my mind, to be successful, a hybrid camera must at the very least be very good at both its hybrid functions and preferrably be excellent at one of them.

 

Take the Panasonic GH1 as an example. Here is a hybrid "SLR" and video camera. One only needs to read the, in my opinion most useful, review of the product over at Luminous Landscape to see why it is the best video performer of all the combo cams (the Canon 5D MKII included). Added to that, as a stills camera it performs extremely well.

 

Now we turn to the S2. Whether some Leicaphiles wish to accept it or not, the camera is a hybrid as one only needs to read all the stuff coming from Leica themselves over the last year; it's a hybrid high end 35mm cam and medium format cam (or if that definition doesn't float your boat, it's a medium-format-type camera in a 35mm form factor; but even if it's only a form factor thing, it still has to appeal to 35mm cam users otherwise there would be not point in bothering to use the form factor)

 

So lets look at the S2 as a 35mm cam. Well, erm ............... there ain't much to get excited about at all. Yes, it can provide full power flash sync (i.e. not having to rely on light power reducing HSS) up to 1/500s, and yes it beats Nikon and Sony on the pixel count but that seems to be about it. Not much there to impress the Nikon D3x owner.

 

Now what of the S2 as a medium format camera. Well, erm ............ it's framerate is 0.5 fps faster than the best peforming Hassy. Wow! Excuse me for not fainting with excited amazement! There is of course the claim of weather sealing and robustness, well isn't that matched (maybe even bettered) by Phase One whose digital backs are reportedly able to withstand arctic conditions and having a vehicle driven over them? I don't reckon anyone who bought, or is thinking of buying, a Hassy H3D-II is gonna be salivating over the s2.

 

So all in all it seems to me that the S2 has nothing in it's hybrid nature that is exeptional, and is just expensive mediocrity.

 

Initially, this camera, due to curiousity, will be popular at rental outlets but in the long run I can't see this thing being a success, it certainly does not deserve to be. However, as strange as it may seem, I really hope it is successful if only because I think the camera industry needs some new types of products as things have got rather stale with the "me too" designs and thinking over the past few years; also the camera, to me anyway, is just so damn gorgeous so maybe a success may lead to improved specs in updated models.

 

Regards all.

[georg]

"it's framerate is 0.5 fps faster than the best peforming Hassy"

 

Have you ever handled one of these systems (S2 or Hassy or Phase)? The S2 is/feels about twice as fast as the ordinary backs, when you read the technical specifications carefully, you'll notice that the achieve about 30-40images/min. The S2 is as fast as the beloved D3X. The most important achievement regarding speed is the ASIC-processor. ALL MFDBs (and M8/DMR, too) are bloody slow in daily handling (writing data, zooming...) - the S2 (even the protoypes I handled) are fast.

The Phase-backs are great (besides speed and the tiny display), the IQ, the handling and the robust Mg-housing. But the Mamiya in front of it? Try it, the S2 feels like from a different planet.

So we only have a new system which is as expensive as other high-end-solutions but smaller, faster, more robust and has the best lenses (at least what we've seen from now)I Seriously, who could ask for that?

[SJP]

So all in all it seems to me that the S2 has nothing in it's hybrid nature that is exeptional, and is just expensive mediocrity.

We don't know anything much about the S2 except what is in the datasheets. Based on that the S2 should be exceptional due to the lenses they have lined up + the fact that they are calculated to include the cover of the sensor in the optical path. As mentioned previously the MTF curves of the 70 mm S2 lens look considerably better than the summilux-M 50/1.4 ASPH, which is extraordinary.

 

As Peter Karbe (head of the optics dept.) said the lenses for the S2 are the best ever to be produced by Leica. Mediocrity is hardly appropriate.

 

See here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-s2-forum/73103-mtf-charts-first-four-s-lenses.html#post758019

and here

Luminous Landscape Forum > MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!

[plevyadophy]

"it's framerate is 0.5 fps faster than the best peforming Hassy"

 

Have you ever handled one of these systems (S2 or Hassy or Phase)? The S2 is/feels about twice as fast as the ordinary backs, when you read the technical specifications carefully, you'll notice that the achieve about 30-40images/min. The S2 is as fast as the beloved D3X. The most important achievement regarding speed is the ASIC-processor. ALL MFDBs (and M8/DMR, too) are bloody slow in daily handling (writing data, zooming...) - the S2 (even the protoypes I handled) are fast.

The Phase-backs are great (besides speed and the tiny display), the IQ, the handling and the robust Mg-housing. But the Mamiya in front of it? Try it, the S2 feels like from a different planet.

So we only have a new system which is as expensive as other high-end-solutions but smaller, faster, more robust and has the best lenses (at least what we've seen from now)I Seriously, who could ask for that?

 

 

Don't get me wrong here, I appreciate that the S2 is having to move heaps of data. However, I just think it doesn't have the wow! factor. Had it shot at 2fps then that would have been a wow!

 

TWICE as fast sounds better than 0.5fps faster.

 

And even if they had moved data at such a fast rate that there are no memory cards currently available that could keep up, that would have been something special; a real big HELLO! WE ARE HERE! LOOK WHAT WE CAN DO!

 

But as it stands they have done nothing exciting.

 

I suppose the best analogy I can think of at the moment is the current world 100metres sprint champion. Yeah, he won and that would have got him in the news anyway; but boy! did he win ..... and by a massive margin. Now that's the kinda performance that makes one sit up and pay attention, just scraping past everyone to the finish line ain't that impressive especially if you have to pay big bucks for the scraping past performance.

 

Regards,

[rosuna]

Modular MF systems also have or may have serious misalignement problems:

 

Joseph Holmes - News: Medium Format Problems

 

.

[plevyadophy]

We don't know anything much about the S2 except what is in the datasheets. Based on that the S2 should be exceptional due to the lenses they have lined up + the fact that they are calculated to include the cover of the sensor in the optical path. As mentioned previously the MTF curves of the 70 mm S2 lens look considerably better than the summilux-M 50/1.4 ASPH, which is extraordinary.

 

As Peter Karbe (head of the optics dept.) said the lenses for the S2 are the best ever to be produced by Leica. Mediocrity is hardly appropriate.

 

See here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-s2-forum/73103-mtf-charts-first-four-s-lenses.html#post758019

and here

Luminous Landscape Forum > MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!

 

I hear you pal, but that performance is taken for granted as a given and the only way those lenses would make "news headlines" is if they were poor; much in the same way that if one goes to a Bentley or Mercedes showroom, being told that the engine is superb doesn't really impress as one EXPECTS it to be, rather one sits in the vehicle and takes in the sumptousness and features for if it was only about the engine one would be content with a basic metal shell and four wheels.

 

Regards,

[sandymc]

The S2 is as fast as the beloved D3X.

 

? The D3x does 5 FPS, the S2 1,5. Or are we talking about a different definition of fast?

 

Sandy

[plevyadophy]

? The D3x does 5 FPS, the S2 1,5. Or are we talking about a different definition of fast?

 

Sandy

 

I guess the comparison is referring to the framerate of the D3x when it is shooting in 14bit mode.

 

Regards

[Guest guy_mancuso]

"it's framerate is 0.5 fps faster than the best peforming Hassy"

 

Have you ever handled one of these systems (S2 or Hassy or Phase)? The S2 is/feels about twice as fast as the ordinary backs, when you read the technical specifications carefully, you'll notice that the achieve about 30-40images/min. The S2 is as fast as the beloved D3X. The most important achievement regarding speed is the ASIC-processor. ALL MFDBs (and M8/DMR, too) are bloody slow in daily handling (writing data, zooming...) - the S2 (even the protoypes I handled) are fast.

The Phase-backs are great (besides speed and the tiny display), the IQ, the handling and the robust Mg-housing. But the Mamiya in front of it? Try it, the S2 feels like from a different planet.

So we only have a new system which is as expensive as other high-end-solutions but smaller, faster, more robust and has the best lenses (at least what we've seen from now)I Seriously, who could ask for that?

 

Have to agree here the S2 does have them all beat in the speed area and a very good reason why I am looking at it. Compared to Hassy and Phase bodies this thing is fast. Nor DSLR fast but you can keep up also no shutter lag which plagues my AFDIII body. Hassy is a touch better on shutter lag but still has relatively slow backs. The fastest back over 30 mpx is the current P40+ at .8 for the next frame ,mine is 1.25 seconds before the next frame and man can I feel the difference. This is my biggest bitch currently. The LCD does not bug me like a lot of MF shooters. Mine I actually like so not a deal breaker but obviously the 3 in on the S2 would be preferred . Mostly when doing the advertising stuff your tethered anyway but obviously we all work different. The S2 does deserve credit here, it may not be fast enough for some and in that case than a DSLR is what is needed at least for now.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I know the D3x does slow down quite a bit in 14 bit and that maybe due to a slower processor which seems to lean that way. Pushing data is tough

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy may sound critical, but from a pro perspective you should be looking for things that might get in the way in the heat of an assignment. Your reputation depends on your results. Equipment deficiencies are not an excuse. Digital equipment is not as reliable and does not deteriorate gracefully. Digital camera errors usually leave you with a useless lump. so pro standards should be.

 

1. Reliability (only my M3 has never failed)

2. No areas of sub professional performance.

3. Instantly available backup. (owned or hired)

4. Fast service turnaround or hire service so you still have a backup for the next job.

5. Leaving a profit margin.

 

It's about making a living.

 

How often have you heard of Uncle getting praise for a great shot at the wedding and the Pro getting scorn for one that was not better out of a few hundred?

 

 

Absolutely and those are my nit points what part of the system is going to give me the heartaches when the heat is on and can we deal with that or is it a deal breaker. Having a backup on site is critical and it happened to me a couple months ago my Phase body went down just as i was starting a shoot. I had my backup but it was home. Yea I know but phone calls to the dealer trying to figure what was happening on a Friday night no less was what makes buying a from a good dealer worth it and getting the loaners the next day and such. All this stuff is critical to the Pro but the hobbyist has very little of this stuff so for them less critical. The S2 will be bought by a lot of hobbyist but Leica's challenge is to swing guy's like me and others that like the DSLR style but obviously their are a lot of check marks to clear first and they know that.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Modular MF systems also have or may have serious misalignement problems:

 

Joseph Holmes - News: Medium Format Problems

 

.

 

Joseph did have his issues no question. But I can safely say i tried almost every back Phase has and it all different back sizes plus in multiples of each and never ran into a alignment issue. Not that it can' t happen but it is rare we also need to remember a sensor could come loss on any cam for that matter and that has happened on a rare occasion.

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Hallo,

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[sdai]

The S2 gains its 1.5 fps frame rate by adopting a sub-mf standard 14 bit A/D converter.

 

If it adopts a real 16 bit A/D I'm sure it'll be slowed down to crawl in hell. And the much hyped Maestro processor is based on the same platform on which Sigma SD14's true image processor was built.