S2 and Leica's list of sins

[pascal_meheut]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Yes, I agree with you; very well put, asleep indeed.

The fact is, time moves on and new tools are provided to make one's life easier, safer, more efficient etc. So it makes no sense recalling a bygone era as if those who call for change are somehow asking for too much.

 

When something appeared 2 years ago and is not widely accessible, it may be excessive to call the period before a "bygone area".

 

And you can see the people complaining about absence of liveview on a camera they'll never buy as "those who call for change" like if they were the Founding Fathers.

Other may see them as spoiled cry-babies with no sense of perspective

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[ptomsu]

The S2 is the S2 and nothing else - not a MF camera, not a 35mm DSLR - PERIOD!

 

For me the features which this camera / system offers are just ok, even much better than competition.

 

The biggest sin - if we can speak of a sin is - that Leica broke the cooperation with Phase and so there will be no C1Pro support for this camera. And this is at eleast for me (and I guess for a number of potential buyers) a real sin, as C1Pro is currently the best RAW conversion and file handling SW available. Aperture, LR and others do not come close.

 

So even the argument with DNG and that DNGs can be handled by many SW packages is not the convincing argument, as all these SWs produce files out of RAW data, which are far inferior to C1Pro.

[zapp]

I wasn't overly excited by the announced specs of the S2.

 

 

Regards,

 

Your list basically compares consumer camera spec sheets published by marketing departments for consumers.

The S2 is addressed at a different group of people. Image quality is issue number one. More speed than medium format cameras and weather seals are probably number two. My goodness - If you need stronger diopter correction, get a diopter lens and please do not compare the S2 viewfinder with something you have seen on the G1. Sometimes it makes no sense to include all possible features in a camera or would you prefer a diopter control of +/-10 just to sacrifice a nice large viewfinder. In-camera live view or even realistic live view is not available in medium format backs - only a binned version which is not really great. Need fast flash sync.? it's available. Nobody needs 1/8000s. What people need is a fast shutter for flash sync. Here the Leica offers 1/500s. The 1/8000s on other shutters is a moving 1/250s at best. Need saphire galss? it's available. Don't need it, don't buy it. First you complain about not enough options, when referring to leaf shutter and saphire glass you cannot stand the options.

 

The real interesting question is how does image quality compare to other larger format cameras and how many customers can Leica win by the additional versatility and weather resistance compared to medium format cameras.

[lxlim]

Welcome to the forum, plevyadophy!

 

Not a list of sins surely?

 

"exciting specs" are not really a MF thing. The happening place is in the Micro 4/3 space or the DSLR. I think its a given that technology trickles slowly down to MF and not all technology is for sale. Licensing out technology makes much less money than selling the widget.

 

Specs are tricky things, just because you can shoot 10fps it does not mean that AF will be reliable. One thing affects another. The more features, the more you have to juggle the variables and greater the opportunity for disaster.

 

"like a car where what really matters is the result (getting to your destination)" - I think the main reason is "image quality", because for certain destinations that is the main criteria for entry.

 

All other features extend its abilities for the photographer to get the shot.

 

 

Image quality is not all about the sensor. Optics, solid mechanical construction, proper techniques and the final output all contribute but also limits the S2's range of capabilities.

 

To this end features like 1.5 fps, exposure metering, 1/125 flash sync, AF, top shutter speed, etc have to be seen in the context of consistent, repeatable, reliable image production for a 37mp or higher image quality.

 

I'm quite sure Leica can give the S2 a greater range of capabilities but will the image quality still be superior to a DSLR? If not, why get it?

 

 

I agree it is gorgeous but so is the oly Pen but I rather carry a Pen for gorgeousness sake.

[el.nino]

Obviously, I am not R10 but yeah that is much better and an enjoyable and informative read (as apposed to the Leica Cult stuff that went before).

 

Shutter 1/4000 - I understand your points but disagree as it seems like a whole lot of faffing around to me all that ND filter stuff. And I note you refer to the camera as MF, well it isn't quite that is it? Rather, what Leica have tried to sell us is a new digital age, and part of that is the portability of the cam. So contrary to what you say people may well be inclined to take this camera out and about, if that is ruled out then they may as well stick to heavy clumsy MF gear.

 

So WHAT do you need 1/8000 for?

The sensors iso -range starts at ISO80. compared to the Nikon D3x (starts at ISO100) 1/4000 on the S2 is 1/5200 on the D3X.

The next thing is maximum aperture. there is no lens on the S2 with an aperture larger than 2.5. this gives you another half f-stop and you are almost at 1/8000 (1/7200).

i don't see any situation where this could become a problem. the S2 is only 0.166 f-stops slower than the D3x.

 

edit:

if you take into account that f2.5 is even more than a halt f-stop compared to f2 both cameras are exactly at the same speed.

 

S2 - ISO80 - 1/4000 - f2.5 == D3x - ISO100 - 1/8000 - f2

[markowich]

another issue is medium-iso noise. we know exactly what noise levels the kodak 6micron sensor technology delivers (see H3DII 50) so my guess is not to expect any better from the S2, unless mysteriously pixel binning appears in the very final spec sheet (doubt it). for those who are not familiar with the H3DII 50 let me tell you that i would not use it beyond 400 iso. of course the argument of some of this crowd will be 'do not need high iso, just max image quality...in a weathersealed body'. fine with me, suit yourself.

let me just reiterate that i still might buy the S2 (although i seem to have been singled out as leica enemy by some of you---))), i am number 2 on my dealer's preorder list. or i might decide that two MF dinosaur systems (H3DII 50, in a few weeks upgraded to 60 and alpa with P65+) may be enough.

peter

[lxlim]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

another issue is medium-iso noise. we know exactly what noise levels the kodak 6micron sensor technology delivers (see H3DII 50) so my guess is not to expect any better from the S2, unless mysteriously pixel binning appears in the very final spec sheet (doubt it). for those who are not familiar with the H3DII 50 let me tell you that i would not use it beyond 400 iso. of course the argument of some of this crowd will be 'do not need high iso, just max image quality...in a weathersealed body'. fine with me, suit yourself.

let me just reiterate that i still might buy the S2 (although i seem to have been singled out as leica enemy by some of you---))), i am number 2 on my dealer's preorder list. or i might decide that two MF dinosaur systems (H3DII 50, in a few weeks upgraded to 60 and alpa with P65+) may be enough.

peter

 

Look forward to your take on it.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

another issue is medium-iso noise. we know exactly what noise levels the kodak 6micron sensor technology delivers (see H3DII 50) so my guess is not to expect any better from the S2, unless mysteriously pixel binning appears in the very final spec sheet (doubt it). for those who are not familiar with the H3DII 50 let me tell you that i would not use it beyond 400 iso. of course the argument of some of this crowd will be 'do not need high iso, just max image quality...in a weathersealed body'. fine with me, suit yourself.

let me just reiterate that i still might buy the S2 (although i seem to have been singled out as leica enemy by some of you---))), i am number 2 on my dealer's preorder list. or i might decide that two MF dinosaur systems (H3DII 50, in a few weeks upgraded to 60 and alpa with P65+) may be enough.

peter

 

The best I have seen at full resolution is ISO 800 with my P30+ and the P40+ at ISO 800 is good also but I would not be shooting ads with it. Great for PR stuff that does not go into large prints. I get nice ISO 800 and there is no CCD sensor on the planet that will do any better than that and one main reason is C1 which is by far the best at noise. LR absolutely sucks for noise on any Kodak sensor I have tried on it. Leica says they are working with Adobe which is great but I would not expect anything clean after ISO 800 regardless. CCD are just not known for it and that is just fact. Look at your DMR's and M8's and you don't have to look much past that and in MF the best at is the P30+. Reason I bought it was the ISO 800 even though it goes to 1600 . 800 is clean but I would not use it for a ad campaign in a pinch maybe. I pointed to this thread several times and exactly what CCD sensors are all about with noise nice test between several backs on noise in particular. I should add the Sensor Plus or pixel binning does a nice job with regards to noise and you can get higher ISO's but not sure if Leica has kept it since it is not on the specs I just posted. Bottom line is don't expect Nikon and Canon miracles here ISO 800 regardless is pretty much the norm. if you want a good balance between the detail and the noise. Now noise ninja is a help if needed as well

 

There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My - The GetDPI Workshop Forums

[ynp]

I hope that the S2 micro-lenses will get us better ISO performance than the 50 mpx Hasselblad with the same pixel pitch .

Yevgeny

[sdai]

let me just reiterate that i still might buy the S2 (although i seem to have been singled out as leica enemy by some of you---))), i am number 2 on my dealer's preorder list...

 

You can't be real, Peter ... I've always heard people say that the S2 buyers are all busy with their million dollar Vanity Fair shots in Manhattan and won't have time for the forum blah blah.

 

For decades, Leica has been mom's spoiled child because the its loyal customers are more forgiving than the most tolerant parents ... now they'll get a tough one ... or may be two.

[markowich]

You can't be real, Peter ... I've always heard people say that the S2 buyers are all busy with their million dollar Vanity Fair shots in Manhattan and won't have time for the forum blah blah.

 

For decades, Leica has been mom's spoiled child because the its loyal customers are more forgiving than the most tolerant parents ... now they'll get a tough one ... or may be two.

 

and the second one is? ----????

peter

[markowich]

and the second one is? ----????

peter

 

ps: it will be really hard to argue with the die-hard-don't-think-go-for-it-nevertheless leica fanboys in the forum(s) without owning an S2 and an M9. so we have to bite the bullet---))))

peter

[sdai]

and the second one is? ----????

peter

 

I'll wait till the TS lens happens and see how it copes with the microlenses, Peter - then I may also grab the 24 and the 30-90 ... otherwise, the 5D2 or the next 1Ds coupled with the TS-E 17/24 shall be sufficient for what I'd like to do.

 

Now I don't travel as frequently as I've done before so I'm not taking a lot pictures these days either.

 

I'm looking forward to enjoying your first hand report ... it would be hard to imagine someone bashing his own 40lk+ purchase for no good reasons, that would make all shut up.

[markowich]

I'll wait till the TS lens happens and see how it copes with the microlenses, Peter - then I may also grab the 24 and the 30-90 ... otherwise, the 5D2 or the next 1Ds coupled with the TS-E 17/24 shall be sufficient for what I'd like to do.

 

Now I don't travel as frequently as I've done before so I'm not taking a lot pictures these days either.

 

I'm looking forward to enjoying your first hand report ... it would be hard to imagine someone bashing his own 40lk+ purchase for no good reasons, that would make all shut up.

 

i just bought the hasselblad 35-90 for my H3DII 50 (60 in one month)...wonderful.hope the leica lens will be on equal footing. good decision on your part to wait for the leica TS, meanwhile i shall be lost among red dot defenders. will try a very tame first report---)))...anyway, if money was the object we would all be shooting canikon and no argument lost.

peter

[R10dreamer]

I am beginning to lean towards buying a Hasselblad 50 as well. If I am going to get a new MF system I may as well get one that is complete.

[glenerrolrd]

This guy came in, gave his viewpoint, stated at the end that he still liked the S2 and most of you just rip him and call him a troll or some other name. What's up with that? If you don't agree with him site your reasons. He didn't come across as rude to me. Just expressing his thoughts.

 

And NO, I don't know him but would like a little more civil response to his points.

 

Jesus, sometimes this place is like high school where everyone is trying to protect their pecking order.

 

Couldn t agree more! Its pretty weak to attack the individual because you disagree with his POV. Right at the beginning 8-10 posts attacking the individual. Particularly irritating are the comments about wasting your time....are you kidding.

 

And in fact I don t agree with much of anything in the initial thread.

 

Would suggest that a more effective approach would be to either refute the points or just let it go. But hey thats just my opinion.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I am beginning to lean towards buying a Hasselblad 50 as well. If I am going to get a new MF system I may as well get one that is complete.

 

It's a nice choice but I highly recommend trying these systems out through a dealer demo or a workshop or anything that will get your hands on it. I have had many people come to me without doing the real homework like this and ask me what they should do next because they simply are not happy with what they bought. All brands included here. No matter what MF system you buy as soon as you drive it off the lot you will lose a lot of money if you change your mind. Just really be sure about it and ask questions, try it , download the raw converters and really put some effort out. Last thing you want is looking at a 40k bill and being really pissed about it. I get these e-mails from folks asking advice and man do I feel really bad for them. But they needed to follow through. Seriously you think I am looking at the S2 for my good health . Not . If I buy this i will shred it to a million pieces figuring out every nit I have to deal with and every road block along the way with it and than weigh it against the good about it . Than i will write the check but not until I go through the effort to find out. So call me the Leica basher or the negative Leica fan boy . It really does not matter because in fact i am not but I will tear anything I buy apart and figure it out first. I did it with my Phase system as well. If you make a mistake here it's load of money, nothing in photography is this expensive but buying in to MF. Take your time

[sdai]

ps: it will be really hard to argue with the die-hard-don't-think-go-for-it-nevertheless leica fanboys in the forum(s) without owning an S2 and an M9. so we have to bite the bullet---))))

 

Not sure how I missed this post, we must be posting at the same time or the forum is acting up again ... but hey, Peter, you bite first and I'll follow if it won't explode. LOL

 

i just bought the hasselblad 35-90 for my H3DII 50 (60 in one month)...wonderful.hope the leica lens will be on equal footing. good decision on your part to wait for the leica TS, meanwhile i shall be lost among red dot defenders. will try a very tame first report---)))...anyway, if money was the object we would all be shooting canikon and no argument lost.

peter

 

I've also heard many good things about the 35-90 but have never seen an actual photograph taken with it, according to the person who told me about it before announcement, it's fully corrected to work with the 36x48 format so in this regard it's even better than the 50-110.

 

It's good to see these great optics falling in good hands and put in actual use instead of being locked up in jewel cabinets not seeing a streak of daylight. My concern is that it's too hard to flip these big ticket items without taking a severe hit, all I want is to play with them and see with my own eyes, that's it.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[R10dreamer]

It's a nice choice but I highly recommend trying these systems out through a dealer demo or a workshop or anything that will get your hands on it. I have had many people come to me without doing the real homework like this and ask me what they should do next because they simply are not happy with what they bought. All brands included here. No matter what MF system you buy as soon as you drive it off the lot you will lose a lot of money if you change your mind. Just really be sure about it and ask questions, try it , download the raw converters and really put some effort out. Last thing you want is looking at a 40k bill and being really pissed about it. I get these e-mails from folks asking advice and man do I feel really bad for them. But they needed to follow through. Seriously you think I am looking at the S2 for my good health . Not . If I buy this i will shred it to a million pieces figuring out every nit I have to deal with and every road block along the way with it and than weigh it against the good about it . Than i will write the check but not until I go through the effort to find out. So call me the Leica basher or the negative Leica fan boy . It really does not matter because in fact i am not but I will tear anything I buy apart and figure it out first. I did it with my Phase system as well. If you make a mistake here it's load of money, nothing in photography is this expensive but buying in to MF. Take your time

 

 

Thank you Guy. I have been shooting for 30 years from Pentax to Nikon to Arca-Swiss to Leica to Rollei to Canon to etc etc. and what I have learned is that all systems have their assets and their liabilities. I am primarily a studio shooter and have rented/used/or owned pretty much everything. The thing I have learned is that the best equipment is useless if the company goes out of business or abandons it's past. You know the history if you go down my list so I don't need to recite the dead ends to you. So, after many months waiting for the R10 and many more months researching MF (then finding out about the S2) I waited for Leica's announcement on price and specs. The S2 may have great lenses. It may have tremendous waterproofing. But what it doesn't have, that I absolutely require, is a general sense that it will be around in 4-5 years. I no longer believe that as a given. Hassy - I feel pretty safe with them. I have not ruled out the S2 totally. But Leica has done nothing over the last 2 years to convince me that they care about their existing customers. And in this economy, if you don't care about your customers, you will die.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I can't speak for Leica but I do have a feeling the internal organization has improved and reorganized to make them better . Which is great and I had a nice talk with them last week and i felt better about things after the M8 stuff. So on that level maybe they are on line to becoming much better at that, we will see. As I have been saying for a couple months now these systems are unique and have many great things about them but also on the same hand there are many things not so good. Reason I said tear these thing apart and see what works for you , no matter which system you chose there will be some compromise ( i'm married I know these things. LOL) but you need to see what is the most important aspects of them and deal with the nits. If the good stuff is far greater than you did well in your choices. Obviously If you need a tech camera the S2 is out right off the bat. What I tell people before the S2 came out is first decide if they need a focal or leaf shutter. Right there just that one decision get's you in the direction that works for you and eliminates others. This is why I said get a demo try them out and really important here is try out the dedicated raw software for them. Raw processing software is important. Anyway i could go on and on and all the virtues of each systems and all the nits but hell I would put most people to sleep. Than they would forget what I say. LOL or better yet ignore it than I will get the e-mails after they buy something.

 

Honestly though I do get a lot of oh craps why did I buy this system. Just be sure that is all I would like folks to do. These mistakes are in multiples of tens of thousands.

 

I still like the s2 and the concept of it and i really want to test one out for sure. There are some things i would really like over my system and some things that are big nits as well but we will see how it looks outside the marketing and in the flesh first. I admit the price took me right to the back of the bus at first but if the images proof the price than who knows.