lxlim Posted October 3, 2009 Share #121 Posted October 3, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just for the record: 1/125 is definitely NOT better than any dSLR on the planet; the old Nikon D70 did synch at 1/500 (admittedly, with the help of the sensor), and the D3/x do synch at 1/250; speaking of Leaf Shutter lenses, 1/500 is standard for most LS lenses (all those with a Copal 0 shutter anyway), and the newly announced Phase One LS lenses do synch at 1/800 (1/1600 with certain backs). So, the S2 is definitely neither better than sDLR nor better than LS lenses. Great advice Guy. I did, and this is when I decided not to go through with the CFV 39 which at first I thought would do it for me. After weighing my needing and checking out Hassy & Phase in the real world (not just on specs) I went for a Phase One system instead. I was looking for a system which allowed me to use an AF camera & lenses as well as a tech camera/wide angle camera combo; service in my local & future prospects of the company were a big point for me, and compatibility/openness of the system was the other. The S2, though I considered it, would have meant the need to get a back for the tech/WA camera; lens & accessories range is very limited for now; Hassy and their choice of a closed system wasn't something I was comfortable with; Phase service & rep here is fantastic, so I went for a P45+ with 2 lenses (for now, 28 & 80) and I got a Silvestri Bicam & S5 cameras with three lenses (28, 47, 90) all for about the price of the S2 & 3 lenses. I can use the Phase back on the Silvestri, and the Silvestri - besides being superbly made - differently than Cambo, Arca etc allows me to use the same lenses on both the WA camera and the studio tech camera without too much fuss. I am definitely a very happy camper at the moment, and I am sorry that the S2 wouldn't suit my needs: it looks great and it surely is a great camera, but to me is too little, too late, too expensive in comparison, and - especially - not as flexible as the other DMF options out there. Just my .02 of course, YMMV. If I remember correctly the sync speed might vary as the aperture gets smaller whereas with the S2 it is a guranteed to stay the same at all apertures. i.e. 1/500 remains 1/500 at all apertures. I might be wrong here but in one of the video interviews by Michael Reichman, someone asked if the sync speed was guranteed for all apertures. Leica seemed quite proud of this achievement, so if it is an important feature you should investigate it. Its not something I use even though I used view cameras for more than a decade. 1/125 was all I got as top sync. I was told that the life of the shutter doubles at every stop slower. So miserly bugger I was, I shoot at 1/30 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 Hi lxlim, Take a look here S2 and Leica's list of sins. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Vieri Posted October 3, 2009 Share #122 Posted October 3, 2009 If I remember correctly the sync speed might vary as the aperture gets smaller whereas with the S2 it is a guranteed to stay the same at all apertures. i.e. 1/500 remains 1/500 at all apertures. I might be wrong here but in one of the video interviews by Michael Reichman, someone asked if the sync speed was guranteed for all apertures. Leica seemed quite proud of this achievement, so if it is an important feature you should investigate it. Its not something I use even though I used view cameras for more than a decade. 1/125 was all I got as top sync. I was told that the life of the shutter doubles at every stop slower. So miserly bugger I was, I shoot at 1/30 Sync speed definitely stays constant with dSLR, while I am not sure about it with the new Phase 1 leaf shutter lenses (I am not one of the lucky few who got some to review or just check out); from the Phase literature, though, it seems it stays constant at 1/800 with any back and go to 1/1600 with some backs only. With older leaf shutter lenses, like Hassy, you can sync at any speed and combinations of speed/diaphragm (at least with the lenses I used). I didn't know the "double shutter life" rule, wish I did though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted October 3, 2009 Share #123 Posted October 3, 2009 If I remember correctly the sync speed might vary as the aperture gets smaller whereas with the S2 it is a guranteed to stay the same at all apertures. i.e. 1/500 remains 1/500 at all apertures. I might be wrong here but in one of the video interviews by Michael Reichman, someone asked if the sync speed was guranteed for all apertures. Leica seemed quite proud of this achievement, so if it is an important feature you should investigate it. Its not something I use even though I used view cameras for more than a decade. 1/125 was all I got as top sync. I was told that the life of the shutter doubles at every stop slower. So miserly bugger I was, I shoot at 1/30 I was the one who asked the question in the video. Sounds great to post a really high spec, but what good is it if it varies based on aperture. Leica is underrating the leaf shutter to be able to give a consistent 1/500th at any and all apertures. Here is a quote from Hasselblad's literature: The shutter is similar to the aperture diaphragms in centre of the lens and opens and closes in a similar way. However, despite all efforts, the speed of the blades remains limited. If the aperture is small, the light opening is cleared a little earlier and closed a little later than when the aperture is wide open. With the introduction of the H1, Hasselblad’s True exposure has become an integral component of the camera system, designed to compensate for deviations. In shorter exposures, the timing for the opening and closing of the shutter is adapted so that the exposure speed is exact and independent of the aperture setting. Extremely fast exposures are compensated for with a marginal adjustment to the aperture, in order to keep the generated exposure independent of aperture setting. Only the fastest shutter speed combined with the smallest aperture setting could result in slightly flawed exposures, but fortunately this is a combination that rarely occurs. Good to know that the camera changes the user's chosen aperture to compensate for shutter variability and that fast sync at small apertures "rarely occurs." I'd prefer to have a shutter system that just works at the settings I select with no fine print attached, rather than one that is 1/2 a stop faster at certain apertures. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plevyadophy Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share #124 Posted October 4, 2009 I was the one who asked the question in the video. Sounds great to post a really high spec, but what good is it if it varies based on aperture. Leica is underrating the leaf shutter to be able to give a consistent 1/500th at any and all apertures. Here is a quote from Hasselblad's literature: Good to know that the camera changes the user's chosen aperture to compensate for shutter variability and that fast sync at small apertures "rarely occurs." I'd prefer to have a shutter system that just works at the settings I select with no fine print attached, rather than one that is 1/2 a stop faster at certain apertures. David So what's the deal with the newly announced Mamiya/Phase One 645 camera? They say that the cam can sync at up to 1/1600s, is that at all apertures? Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted October 4, 2009 Share #125 Posted October 4, 2009 opinions are like sphincters, everyone has one. :D Excellent Carsten. I love it when those with the best and most consistent manners finally get teed off. The results are most enjoyable! T Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 4, 2009 Share #126 Posted October 4, 2009 :D Excellent Carsten. I love it when those with the best and most consistent manners finally get teed off. The results are most enjoyable! Hmm, you had to bring that page-1-snip back, didn't you. Not my finest hour (although I still chuckle when I read it). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted October 4, 2009 Share #127 Posted October 4, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) So what's the deal with the newly announced Mamiya/Phase One 645 camera? They say that the cam can sync at up to 1/1600s, is that at all apertures? Regards On another forum (with a large Phase One user base and dealer presence), I asked how this actually works as their new leaf shutter lenses only reach 1/800th maximum speed. The silence was overwhelming. My guess is that certain digital backs have CCD shutters, much like compact digital cameras. Interline CCDs have the ability to do this, while full frame CCDs do not. The new Dalsa chips in the P40 and P65 might be interline CCDs, but I haven't been able to verify this. Whether or not Phase One's new leaf shutters will behave similar to Hasselblad's is unknown right now. Details are pretty slim. We'll have to see. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 4, 2009 Share #128 Posted October 4, 2009 On another forum (with a large Phase One user base and dealer presence), I asked how this actually works as their new leaf shutter lenses only reach 1/800th maximum speed. The silence was overwhelming. My guess is that certain digital backs have CCD shutters, much like compact digital cameras. Interline CCDs have the ability to do this, while full frame CCDs do not. The new Dalsa chips in the P40 and P65 might be interline CCDs, but I haven't been able to verify this. Whether or not Phase One's new leaf shutters will behave similar to Hasselblad's is unknown right now. Details are pretty slim. We'll have to see. David You got several reasonable answers to the question but obviously discriminating on the Phase gear and answers which you are not willing to accept and yet the camera on the street less than a week and except one or two people that have had it and not even tried it yet to give any reasonable answer at this point. Again if your going to be a Leica fanboy great but start stating the real facts or better yet leaving the answers in instead of ignoring them or leaving them out. And I quote the replies . FYI Yair works for the Leaf division of Phase One and has been in this business for a very long time and well respected in the industry David and all, My posts here and on LL about the new 645DF came after 2 days of working with it in Barcelona and I expect to have more time with it over the next days. There are already a few early production units in the field (see Tim's teasing post) so you should expect more hands-on information available soon. The LS lenses are capable of 1/800 max shutter/ sync speed and in combination with patented (pending) technology on the Dalsa chips you'll be able to reach 1/1600. That's 2-3 times faster than the S2... The beauty in this is that you can use an old DB (6MP-60MP...) on the new body with the new lenses and enjoy the high sync speed along with up to 1/4000 when utilising the FP shutter. Yair Thanks Yair and as I mentioned earlier the legacy backs like the P30+ and P45+ Kodak sensors would only go to 1/800 and my bet is because of the wake up issue more than anything else and the new P40+ and P65+ Dalsa do not have a wake up issue and that I know since we don't need a wake cable for them. Yair forgive me but I do not know of the Leaf backs that can go either way and maybe you can go over them. That is my assumption on this and for me with the P30+ I can get 1/800 with the LS glass and still maintain my 1/4000 when I need it. That works for me and maybe a lot of folks as well. Obviously the P40+ which is on my radar screen will do 1/6000. So in the end it sounds like the limit is in the back itself and not the new LS lenses which is capable of the top 1/6000 speed. And only with the new body I would assume as well. __________________ Guy and Jack's Upcoming Workshops Here is the whole thread New PHASE ONE 645DF Medium Format CAMERA - The GetDPI Photography Forums Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted October 5, 2009 Share #129 Posted October 5, 2009 You got several reasonable answers to the question but obviously discriminating on the Phase gear and answers which you are not willing to accept and yet the camera on the street less than a week and except one or two people that have had it and not even tried it yet to give any reasonable answer at this point. Again if your going to be a Leica fanboy great but start stating the real facts or better yet leaving the answers in instead of ignoring them or leaving them out. Guy, Here are my posts from GetDPI in order. You will see that I am merely asking for details and limitations (which still haven't been provided), not being a "Leica fanboy." Posted on Sept 29: Any more detailed info on the 1/1600th sync? Is the speed accomplished purely in the leaf shutter or using timing on the CCD (like the Nikon D70 did?) Any limitations on aperture used? Just curious. It's a big number and would be quite an accomplishment if the final specs (and results) match up to the marketing verbiage in the press release. David Posted Oct 1: I'm still curious on the flash sync spec. No one wants to take a guess at this? If the camera has a custom function that switches from leaf to focal at speeds higher than 1/800th, where is the 1/1600th coming from? Certainly not from the leaf shutter. And if the camera was able to sync this high electronically (ie. using the CCD), why the need for leaf shutter lenses anyway? Doug? Yair? Care to chime in? Do you guys have any details on this? David Posted Oct 2: Still no details on the "groundbreaking" flash sync? Can anyone confirm that this is a real spec and if it actually works? I'm sure I'm not the only one interested. While I would love to have seen this for myself and talk to those in the know about it, seems Phase One will be a no-show at Photo Plus. I found out a few days ago that as a Mamiya Digital dealer, I will have the opportunity to sell the new 645DF with either a 33 or 56MP Leaf back. And, the info to dealers from Mamiya is about as vague as the press release from Phase. In other words, no one seems to know. David I know that some Phase One dealers went to Denmark for the announcement last week. I'd assume that they had a chance to handle the new camera and talk directly to product managers/engineers. I was hoping that they might be able to offer some more details on such an important new feature. I can understand waiting on seeing final results, but given that the 1/1600th sync is a published spec and touted as one of the key features of the new camera. I'd expect that Phase One would be more forthcoming with details on this. Since nobody is sharing, I can only assume that no one really knows and we'll just have wait and see. David After this last post, Yair finally posted: David and all, My posts here and on LL about the new 645DF came after 2 days of working with it in Barcelona and I expect to have more time with it over the next days. There are already a few early production units in the field (see Tim's teasing post) so you should expect more hands-on information available soon. The LS lenses are capable of 1/800 max shutter/ sync speed and in combination with patented (pending) technology on the Dalsa chips you'll be able to reach 1/1600. That's 2-3 times faster than the S2... The beauty in this is that you can use an old DB (6MP-60MP...) on the new body with the new lenses and enjoy the high sync speed along with up to 1/4000 when utilising the FP shutter. Yair While I appreciate Yair acknowledging and attempting to answer, he did not provide the details I am asking about. I never asked if it was possible. I wanted to know how it was made possible and some more details on this spec. Then, after doing some of my own research on CCDs and a little digging on Dalsa's site (and still not finding the answer), I posted this here on L-Camera-Form in answer to a question: On another forum (with a large Phase One user base and dealer presence), I asked how this actually works as their new leaf shutter lenses only reach 1/800th maximum speed. The silence was overwhelming. My guess is that certain digital backs have CCD shutters, much like compact digital cameras. Interline CCDs have the ability to do this, while full frame CCDs do not. The new Dalsa chips in the P40 and P65 might be interline CCDs, but I haven't been able to verify this. Whether or not Phase One's new leaf shutters will behave similar to Hasselblad's is unknown right now. Details are pretty slim. We'll have to see. David So, after all this, what do we really know? As I mentioned twice, I guess we'll have to wait and see. Considering your personal investment in the Phase One system, I'm sure you'd like to know more as well. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 5, 2009 Share #130 Posted October 5, 2009 No David I could care less how it is being done to a shooter it is meaningless. What counts is taking advantage of it and using it in practice. Like any other system even the S2 there are certain things we will never know and certain questions that any OEM will not answer. I have more than several on the S2 myself and on the Hassy that are more intellectual property questions that won't get a answer for more out of curiosity than anything else. In this case it was announced on the 29th and two people actually have tried it or have not gotten to that part of trying it out in a test. Until it is in the hands of someone that can run some tests than like any other spec sheet out there we just don't know until we try it out. Frankly being a Mamiya dealer you should be telling us. We are the end user and no one can answer your question at this time except the OEM. Personally on any system I am looking at I want it in my hands to see what it can or cannot do .How it is done from a engineering POV I honestly could care less, that part does not make the images but only we can take advantage of how it actually works in the field. Obviously 1/6000 of a second poses a issue with Radio remotes as most of them can't get that high, that is more important to me than how they made the damn thing. Just like the S2 or new Hassy that stuff is up to the engineers how it works in my hands is all I care about and what i can take advantage of. Problem is technology changes rapidly sometimes and in this case somehow they figured out a way to get to 1/6000 with the Dalsa sensors but for me with a Kodak legacy back i get 1/800 and that is something I can take advantage of especially for fill in this Arizona inferno . For that I give them credit and coming out with 3 new Leaf shutter lenses from Schnieder that are nicely compact and look very nice from the few images we have seen. The upgrade for current AFDIII users is 1500 dollars and given a fairly nice feature set than I am all over it at least for now until I figure out what I want if anything in the future. The S2 is on my radar as well and until i can try it than it will be on my radar but there are many questions still unanswered there as well and i am not getting answers either until it actually comes out and in use. BTW I am expecting one hopefully within the next week or two and hopefully you will get your engineering question answered by than if not I will try myself to find out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephengilbert Posted October 5, 2009 Share #131 Posted October 5, 2009 Jeez, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. David, haven't you been writing up your "review" of the S2? Aren't there questions about the camera you haven't answered? I may be mistaken about your access to the S2, but it appears that Leica reps shouldn't be complaining about the speed that others are responding to their questions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 5, 2009 Share #132 Posted October 5, 2009 Frankly being a Mamiya dealer you should be telling us. I think you accidentally stumbled on exactly the point that David has been trying to make. He is a dealer (isn't he?), and yet Phase hasn't told him, so he can't tell us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 5, 2009 Share #133 Posted October 5, 2009 No he is not a dealer for Phase and so far Mamiya has not announced this under there brand name which falls under Mac US distribution I believe. He needs to call them and find out but Mamiya may not release this under there name for a certain amount of time given contracts between Phase and Mamiya. Let's be clear Phase One is a direct competitor to Dale Photo labs . He sells Mamiya with leaf backs under the MAC distribution channel basically this http://www.mamiya.com/ And that is as far as i will go on with this discussion here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted October 6, 2009 Share #134 Posted October 6, 2009 Jeez, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. David, haven't you been writing up your "review" of the S2? Aren't there questions about the camera you haven't answered? I may be mistaken about your access to the S2, but it appears that Leica reps shouldn't be complaining about the speed that others are responding to their questions. Stephen, As far as the S2, I've been asking questions, getting answers and providing them on my blog as well as here on the forum for the last year. Leica has been extremely open since the introduction and has been extremely responsive to answering my questions (or the ones I've passed along from customers, forum members or my blog readers). For example: David Farkas Photography Blog: PMA 2009 - Updates on the Leica S2 Yes, my review will be up very shortly, but I'm not aware of any serious lingering questions that haven't been answered. That doesn't mean there aren't any, but most people I talk to are just very curious to see images and experience the handling for themselves. If you have a specific technical question on the S2, I'll be happy to either answer it directly or find out the answer from the product managers in Germany. The Phase One press release talks about the 1/1600th sync in the second sentence of the first paragraph: Engineered in partnership with Mamiya Digital Imaging for superior quality image capture and ease of handling, it sets a new standard for high flash sync speeds – up to 1/1600 of a second. I find it interesting that there isn't more on such a headlining new feature. I thought perhaps Phase One folks might have more insight and be willing to share. As I've learned, they don't know anymore than I do right now. Not complaining, just curious. I think at this point, others have made a bigger deal of this than I have. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted October 6, 2009 Share #135 Posted October 6, 2009 No he is not a dealer for Phase and so far Mamiya has not announced this under there brand name which falls under Mac US distribution I believe. He needs to call them and find out but Mamiya may not release this under there name for a certain amount of time given contracts between Phase and Mamiya. Let's be clear Phase One is a direct competitor to Dale Photo labs . He sells Mamiya with leaf backs under the MAC distribution channel basically this MAMIYA And that is as far as i will go on with this discussion here. Yes, I am a MAC dealer and not a Phase One dealer. I received a MAC dealer memo the day after the Phase One announcement. Mamiya Digital dealers will be selling the 645DF with either a 33 or 56MP Leaf back, along with the new leaf shutter lenses. This much I do know. I feel honored that you think my store is a director competitor to Phase One. I think you meant to say that the S2 is a direct competitor to the Phase/Mamiya system. If I can sell the Mamiya/Leaf system, why would I try to put it down? First off, I'm not putting it down. I'm merely asking for details, which are lacking. Secondly, if I did prefer the S2, is it possible that I personally feel that the S2 is a better system? Possibly even from personal experience shooting the camera and working with the files..... I sell Nikon and Canon as well, but I think the M9 with Leica glass is a better, more portable tool than a 1DsIII or D3x. I'm not afraid to tell people as such, even if it means my Nikon or Canon sales suffer. I'd much rather give people my honest advice. Seriously, I have the option of shooting whatever I want, be it the new Mamiya/Leaf system, D3x, 1DsIII, S2 or M9. I also sell Zeiss lenses, so the options grow a bit. What do I shoot personally? I will be shooting with the M9 and S2 for the foreseeable future as I believe they offer me the best image quality with the the easiest workflow, simplest handling, and give me access to amazing lens options. I know that you personally use the Phase system, so you have an interest there, which is fine. Switching to the S2 may not be for you and in your position, I might advise you to just do the body upgrade on your Mamiya. If you are happy with the image quality you get today, like the lenses, the workflow, and are comfortable with the improvements the new body will bring, then why bother switching? I'd say you have a great system, so you should stick with it. Sounds like a good plan. Me, I have no investment in Mamiya/Phase or S2 (yet). I have a personal investment in M glass, so upgrading my M8.2 to an M9 makes a great deal of sense. I also want to use the S system for its handling, size, weather sealing, speed, and image quality. So, this is my plan. Anyway, I'm not really sure what all this hostility towards me is about. All this seemed to start with me questioning a spec on a new camera system. Many have questioned the specs on the S2. I'm not posting questions just to be a pest. I really do want to know, and after all this there are still no details. I understand that you don't care and don't want to know, which is fine. On the other hand, I am interested in this kind of stuff (as a true photo geek), but as I've said (now, for the fourth time) I guess I'll just have to wait and see. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted October 6, 2009 Share #136 Posted October 6, 2009 David, just a quick thank you for all the time and work you put into this forum. The information you share here is much appreciated. Please let us know when your S2 review is up. On a sidenote: you mention that you'll be using the S2 and your M's for personal work. Can you provide a link to your photo's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted October 6, 2009 Share #137 Posted October 6, 2009 BTW - Not everyone uses flash, or needs high speeds for it - and is not of great concern. David, as usual, thanks as well for the efforts and time you put in - it's appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.