Some news about the M8

[Samir Jahjah]

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If confirmed this is disapointing. I am glad I canceled my order. I use 6 Leica lenses, + 2 non leicas (VG 12mm and VG 35 1.2) . I would need several filters, plus the coded lenses. I guess I will for the Epson Rd 2 or the Leica M9... In the meantime I still have 2 M6s and 1 M7 to play with. Leica is risking its reputation as well as undermining the future of the M!

[JFB318]

Does the mandatory use of IR filters preclude the use of other filters, such as polarizers, due to possible vignetting with wide angle lenses with stacked filters?

[blakley]

I disagree with you there, Sean. I am going to use the filters for B&W. I love the B&W results from the M8 - especially the fact that the files don't look "digital" because they have a hint of noise that looks like grain - BUT the blacks aren't as dark as I like, and I'm very confident that this is an IR contamination issue. The attached file looks great to me, but it would look even better if the subject's top were as dark as it was in real life. I encourage you to try B&W with & without filters and compare - I'll be interested in the results. (Of course, I'm all about darkness, shadows, and blacks, and your tastes may differ).

 

[norm_snyder]

Sean--

 

I'll look forward to your observations about the black and white results. I am finding that the files shot using my type 4 35mm Summicron [sans filter] in low light, at iso 640, are as pleasing as I could wish, and the only real difference [in comparison to XP2+ in an M6 with the same lens mounted] is better fine detail definition, due to shooting digital, rather than Flextight scans of XP2 negs, and that the field of view of the lens is less than I have been used to over the years. I'll probably be using my 24 Elmarit a good deal more, although it has a different "look" than the earlier, Summicron, design. Dynamic range is better than I expected, to the point that I have wondered whether, for some applications, I need even bother with raw files.

 

--Norm

[norm_snyder]

It looks like the controversy, and the black and white ability of this camera is getting the neuer benutzer, former lurkers, including myself, involved.

 

--Norm Snyder

[sean_reid]

I disagree with you there, Sean. I am going to use the filters for B&W. I love the B&W results from the M8 - especially the fact that the files don't look "digital" because they have a hint of noise that looks like grain - BUT the blacks aren't as dark as I like, and I'm very confident that this is an IR contamination issue. The attached file looks great to me, but it would look even better if the subject's top were as dark as it was in real life. I encourage you to try B&W with & without filters and compare - I'll be interested in the results. (Of course, I'm all about darkness, shadows, and blacks, and your tastes may differ).

 

 

Disagree isn't the word exactly, it's a matter of taste and choice. I never assume that my preferences will apply to everyone else and I think there's very rarely one "best" way to do anything. You're right about the IR effects on low tones. But some will actually prefer that and some won't. There's no right or wrong choice here.

 

No need to encourage me on the latter, fortunately, that section has already been drafted. I've done a lot of this experimentation already.

[sean_reid]

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Sean--

 

I'll look forward to your observations about the black and white results. I am finding that the files shot using my type 4 35mm Summicron [sans filter] in low light, at iso 640, are as pleasing as I could wish, and the only real difference [in comparison to XP2+ in an M6 with the same lens mounted] is better fine detail definition, due to shooting digital, rather than Flextight scans of XP2 negs, and that the field of view of the lens is less than I have been used to over the years. I'll probably be using my 24 Elmarit a good deal more, although it has a different "look" than the earlier, Summicron, design. Dynamic range is better than I expected, to the point that I have wondered whether, for some applications, I need even bother with raw files.

 

--Norm

 

The IR actually increases effective DR in some areas, as you've discovered intuitively.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

It looks like the controversy, and the black and white ability of this camera is getting the neuer benutzer, former lurkers, including myself, involved.

 

--Norm Snyder

 

That's great.

 

Sean

[kaimaui]

How do the filters affect out doors shots in lots of sunlight?

Has anybody seen the effect of the filter on leaves / foliage?

 

Thanks

 

KAI

[jrgeoffrion]

The IR actually increases effective DR in some areas, as you've discovered intuitively.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

The extra IR also, most probably, increases the "actual" or effective ISO of the M8. I'm sure that in some circumstances, the ISO with the filter will be different than "sans" IR filter.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I am getting about a half stop more with the filter

[Jamie Roberts]

You know, I'm starting to sound like a stuck record here, but the camera as it is right now is fabulous, even compared to the other excellent cameras out there.

 

I'm glad to hear they will fix the streaking. I expect a swap, not a camera trip to Solms, though I don't mind waiting awhile.

 

I've played another 5 minutes with the profile while I wait for a DCC to be delivered. Just for laughs, I upped the global saturation and brought back the greens a bit (well, a bit more than I should have). I wanted to see how "Nikon-esque" I could make the out of RAW file look.

 

The results are starting to look a lot better than everyone else's digicam, IMO, with no magenta where it shouldn't be--and no filters. Lots of saturated blues and greens.

 

I don't have time to post a lot tonight, but believe me when I say I'll take Solms's filter offer just in case there are extreme circumstances where I need it. I'd also like to do some tests with them.

 

But though I need the streaking fixed, I just don't care about the "magenta" problem anymore. I'm fully convinced a great profile is what this camera needs.

 

Here's are two shots from my trip...

 

First, a 12 second shot (yes, 12 seconds, it's a little blown) at f11 (it was dark!) at ISO 640 from the restuarant called Ecco in Atlanta. If you're ever in the city, try the restaurant, (pricey but worth it!)

 

Note: ugly, dark, tungsten light--> Note no magenta shift. Lots of synthetics in the crowd, but no problems with saturation or "IR bleeding" really. I'll post one more tonight...

 

Note 2: you shoot this camera much more like a film camera, IMO. I'd been doing it all wrong at first. If you nail the exposure, the thing really is noiseless, and has lots of exposure play room right up till 2500, when you need whatever light you can get to the sensor...

 

Second, a couple of shots from the BT awards on Sunday. I stumbled into this hip-hop stuff, someone told me I just missed seeing Beyonce (sigh. The closest I'll ever get!!)

 

Yeah--they're both soft. They were shot at ISO 1250 and at f4, but from my waist and while being jostled in the crowd. So I'm pleased with them.

 

Note failing and mixed light and lots of synthetics. No magenta; colors look bang on the money to me (if a little more saturated, but that's ok for the Web).

 

These are also "wedding-esque" situations. So I'm very comfortable now with this, and will start to use it for work starting next week. It will only get better, folks!

 

I want to emphasize that the file prep now *takes less time than a DMR shot* which is saying something. I know people think C1 nailed the DMR profile, and they did, relative to the M8, but I still think the best DMR profile out there is actually Imacon's not surprisingly.

 

So I know what I'm doing this December with ProfileMaker 5

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[scott kirkpatrick]

Many of my cameras in my collection have a dymo label saying "CK ISO" and you can guess why:D I may put a decal on my M8 with all the new stuff to check:o

Check

ISO - WB - EV

Lens code

Remove lens cap

 

 

Bob

 

Checklists! That takes me back to my flight instructor life (currently inactive):

 

GUMPS -- Gas -- fullest tank?, Undercarriage down and locked? Mixture rich? Prop pitch full? Seatbelts?

Feels a little silly, until you experience the alternative.

 

especially leaving the lens cap on. That's an easy mistake to make coming from an SLR.

 

scott

[rosuna]

I'm glad to hear they will fix the streaking. I expect a swap, not a camera trip to Solms, though I don't mind waiting awhile.

 

That is the point. Leica should not have shipped that camera until all the problems were fixed or documented, if they knew the existence of problems (it is likely they knew). I paid a lot of money for a camera that needs to be returned for "repair"! Some people cannot renounce to the camera for weeks.

 

I accept the filter solution. I don't like it, but can accept it. I think it must have been fixed in the sensor. Maybe Leica adopted the best possible solution, the best possible IR filter for a rangefinder camera. In that case, they must to explain to the customers why is it, and why they did not explain it *before* the camera shipped.

 

I understand the M8 is an impressive technical achievement. It is far more complex and difficult to design than a reflex camera. Leica is a small company. I am positively impressed. I wish the best for Leica in this new era, but I am a bit sad due to these problems (I am affected) and the possible consequences of all this negative publicity for Leica.

[hyper67]

Well if anything this should tell Solms one thing- sack the whole marketing team!

[alexr]

IMHO, the only way for Leica to solve the IR issue is to include a "manual coding in the camera menu". The Nikon D2x has that for older lenses so that it can include the EXIF information.

 

Including a "manual coding in the camera menu" would solve MANY problems, namely:

 

1) requirement to get all the lenses coded (time and cost);

2) speed up the solution (see 1) above);

3) extend the solution to non Leica lenses (yes, it will eat some market share but a lot less than the goodwill it will create)

 

If Leica is reading this and want to contact me, they know the way to reach me.

 

This is a very good idea. The best i would say. Still full of problems though. I mean imagine you are shooting fast, need to change lenses (ie lose time/shots as you do it) and then need to access the menu to "dial in" the new lens (more time/shots missed).

Don't these guys know they are competing with systems which offer zooms, AF etc? (no time/shots lost).

But if they did go for this then at least they would allow us to use non Leica and old lenses...a small "pro" in a sea of "cons". Leica please consider this. Don't put users ina situations where the "cons" just overwhelm the pros (by pros I also mean professional users). Thank-you.

[waterlenz]

I am getting about a half stop more with the filter

 

 

The filter is INCREASING the ISO ??????

[alexr]

red reflections from filter:

2) I just shot a huge wedding and often worked very close to my subjects. The red reflection, if they noticed it at all, didn't seem to make a bit of difference. I think it's a red herring (pun not originally intended).

 

Point taken Sean. But people at a wedding expect to see a photographer taking pictures.

Many Leica users (Bresson, Salgado , need i go on..) tend to work in situations where the subjects don't know (or shouldn't know) a photographer is even there! That is what makes the small Ms the best reportage tool. How are we are supposed to do this "sneak up to the subject" work with a reflective red filter on?

[waterlenz]

snip Maybe Leica adopted the best possible solution, the best possible IR filter for a rangefinder camera. In that case, they must to explain to the customers why is it, snip.

 

Absolutely!! And the explanation will have to pass muster with the engineers on this board! No authoritative statements, we need proof. With good rationale folks WILL accept the filter solution. I accept it because of my interest in IR photography but presently this is not universal among those here.

Tom

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Hallo,

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[waterlenz]

You know, I'm starting to sound like a stuck record here, but the camera as it is right now is fabulous, even compared to the other excellent cameras out there.

 

 

 

Nice shots, now WHERE is my M8?

Tom