Comparing Viewfinders in used, new M7's and an MP

[tgray]

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I think as you can see from the discussions, that for some photographers get flare a lot, dependent upon how they shoot and in what conditions. Others seem to barely notice.

 

Like I said, indoors, I seem to get it often enough with my M6. And when it happens, I can't focus, AT ALL. Yes, I can shift the camera, change it's orientation, or shield it from the light source to fix the problem. Yes, it doesn't happen all the time. So far, I've not missed some super critical shot. But it does happen, and it happens enough to not discount it, at least for me. I get flare in the viewfinder more than I get some nasty flare in my pictures.

 

I rarely if ever get it outside.

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[thrid]

Not cost cutting, it was just the fashion for Flares at the time.

 

aiiiieeee...

 

;-)

[thrid]

You see, thrid, *that's* what I mean by over-stated. Frame for frame, there have probably been more great pictures taken by more great photographers using M6 variants during the almost twenty years of its production cycle than any other camera. And yet it requires a finder upgrade if it is to be used in more than a "casual manner"?

 

But then those photographers were probably concentrating just a bit more on subject, content, timing etc and a bit less on the occasional finder flare...

 

 

By casual I mean taking pictures of pets, architecture, the family on vacation etc.

 

Of course people made fantastic pictures with cameras that flared, but I don't know one professional or advanced amateur who did not complain about the flare problem. It did not make them shelve their M6 bodies, but it was a major annoyance and sometimes it would cost them the occasional shot, which is a lot more serious a problem for a pro than an amateur.

 

I shoot street photography and documentary work, sometimes professionally. The flare was a pain in the you know what for the first years that I shot M bodies. I ended up adding M2 and M4 bodies to my kit, because they did not flare. The flare did not stop me from working, but it did cost me the occasional shot and it was distracting. The last few years since getting the upgrade have been a lot more pleasant.

 

So, yes. I stand by my statement that if you are going to use the camera for anything more than casual picture taking or showing it off to your friends, you are strongly advised to get the upgrade. Obviously you can take picture without the upgrade, but it's a heck of a lot better tool with the fix.

[kivis]

Confirm the serial number with the seller before buying, or at the very least be sure you have a return privilege.

For the M7, what serial number constitutes a "newer version". Mine is #3009xxx.

[tgray]

Somewhere above 2885xxx or something. You should be fine. If your camera has the new DX reader and it came that way from the factory, you should be fine. If your camera box has a sticker that mentions the new finder, you should be fine.

[jacarape]

Hi Leica Forum!

 

I'm still searching for a new M7 after much research on the internet. I finally went to my local camera store which sells all Leica products to see and hold various camera bodies -- namely, a few used and a demo M7, and a new MP for comparison. I spent time comparing the views through the eyepiece of these seven camera bodies with no lens attached. Back and forth I went carefully paying attention to how the focusing patch looked in every camera body. What a surprise! I'm glad I did this tedious procedure because it was very enlightening. The focusing patch in the older M7's exhibited a annoying amount of flare while the new MP and the new demo M7 (serial 322xxxxx) showed very little flare. The older M7's all had serial numbers around 277xxxxx and 278xxxx. I was told that the MP was new. I was sitting and casually pointing the camera bodies to a darker area of the camera store and paying attention to the patch while the bright sunlit store's window was hitting the camera from the left side. This caused the flare in some of the M7's patches. I could only get rid of most of the flare with exact centering of my eye in these older M7's . In the new MP and new demo M7, I didn't need to center my eye to enjoy a flare-free patch. The view in these two newer bodies was more contrasty than in the older M7's. This experiment could only have been done visiting a camera store and experimenting with the older and newer M7's and MP all at once to see the differences in the patches. No amount of web browsing could of given me this important information. Unfortunately, I declined purchasing my sought-after M7 at this store since they had no newer M7 with a better viewfinder than the older M7's. After this experiment, I now believe I want a newer M7 with the improved viewfinder and not an older one. There was a big difference in what I saw.

 

After talking by phone to many camera stores with used M7 stock, I now believe that there are a lot of older (pre-288xxxxx) M7's for sale in these camera stores. Many are in mint condition externally and have a fine appearance but they have inferior focusing patches from pre-MP days. If I place an order on the web for a "new in the box" M7, how new is it really? A M7 "new in the box" could still be a pre-MP upgrade model that's been in storage for many years. So, how do you know how new an M7 you're getting by placing an order without inspecting it first?:confused:

 

Thanks, Peter Natscher

Monterey, California

 

 

Sorry to sound like a dick, no wait, I am a dick. So you go into a brick and mortar shop and take all of the value added services for free, then go search on the internet to save the 300 bucks that the guy that spent a few hours of his time saving you. Nice, this is why there are few camera stores left, guys will soak up local lessons then order on the web for 300 bucks less.

 

If the store provided you with a service that has value, which obviously they did, why wouldn't you buy one of their cameras?

[Peter Natscher]

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Sorry to sound like a dick, no wait, I am a dick. So you go into a brick and mortar shop and take all of the value added services for free, then go search on the internet to save the 300 bucks that the guy that spent a few hours of his time saving you. Nice, this is why there are few camera stores left, guys will soak up local lessons then order on the web for 300 bucks less.

 

If the store provided you with a service that has value, which obviously they did, why wouldn't you buy one of their cameras?

 

Hi,

 

Actually, the story goes like this:

 

I walked into a local camera store that sells a lot of fine cameras including Leica's. I ask if I could see a few of their used M7's and MP along with new ones for comparison. I tell them that I am thinking of buying one but don't have any experience with one in my hands -- only what I read about them on the web. I first wanted to have one in my hands to get an idea of how they feel and operate. After spending an hour playing around with three or four used M7's and a MP, and one demo M7, I made my decision to buy a new M7. They said that they only have this one demo M7 that's almost new and are unwilling to sell that one to me. I asked how long it would take for them to get me a new M7. They said not to long and they would phone me when it arrives. That was a month ago and I got tired of waiting for them to call. This wasn't the first time they dropped the ball on me and so they lost a sale. When I phoned B&H Photo Video in NYC, they had new M7's in stock and quickly sent one out to me in a few days. The local store looses and B&H wins. My intentions were good. I wanted to support my local store but they were only pushing to sell me one of their used M7's and I told them I wanted a new one. I would have bought the demo M7 (almost new) but they reneged. We weren't on the same track. So, that's it!

[Peter Natscher]

For the M7, what serial number constitutes a "newer version". Mine is #3009xxx.

 

My new M7 purchased from B&H a month ago has serial no. 3328xxx.

[jacarape]

Hi Peter, thank you for the explanation. Some stores refuse to compete. BHPhoto is a great place to buy.

[Pitsurero]

Fully in agreement. I also have an M7 upgraded by Leica New Jersey and an original M6 from 1986 - third year of its production. The difference in the finders is negligible and I really have to try hard to make the M6 finder 'flare'.

 

The flare issue is truly over rated. After all - the M6 along with the M3 had the longest production run of any Leica camera; surely if the finder was 'so bad', the issue would have come up a lot earlier than it did........

 

Best,

 

Jan

 

.....Man had been riding a horse for thousands of years prior to the invention of automobile,..but no one then complained it was too slow and wished they a Honda Civic.

[philipus]

Viewfinder flare in the non-MP finder versions of M7s and M6s is rather over-stated, I think. My M7, which has been upgraded by Leica, is a touch brighter and somewhat less flare-prone than my M6 (which hasn't been upgraded) but let's be honest, these are pretty marginal differences. It's not as if the pre-MP finder was simply duff, after all.

 

The flaring is more noticeable (to me, anyway) in low light with oblique light in the frame or in very strong oblique light -- actually, in the kind of lighting that is in any case most chalenging to shoot in.

 

I bet for mainly scenic photography the difference would be largely immaterial.

 

Well, for my TTL the difference turned out to be nothing short of huge. I just had its VF upgraded by Solms and it made a very real difference. Previously it flared literally all the time - and I missed many shots as a result - but now it is rock solid, as good as my M4. I used the TTL extensively on Saturday in very sunny and bright outdoors conditions and it flared only once, and then only a little. I have tried indoors with strong lights, like spots, in various angles and the patch is consistently contrasty and easy to use.

 

Maybe my TTL was flawed originally, but whatever the reason now it is perfect. If I needed to buy another M I would not even consider one without a flare resistant rangefinder.

 

cheers

Philip

[rpopescu]

yes, the 0.85 pre Mp is a pig with bright oblique light. never used the 0.72.

 

All MP finders are great and the M3 finder has the clearest patch of all no matter what light as in it does not lose any contrast no matter what. A tiny bit of contrast can be lost in the MP finder but not enough to matter in the slightest.

 

Never tried the MP myself, but I second the M6/0.85 and M3 observations - the M3's viewfinder kicks the .85's ass in every possible way. Perhaps the use of ground glass on the M3 has something to do with it too.