Guest BigSplash Posted July 31, 2009 Share #1 Posted July 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) It occurs to me that when the full frame camera is available the crop factor disappears and 21mm lenses will work as 21mm etc. I ask why would people buy new lenses from the factory, or are there benefits of a fullframe or indeed the new lenses that I am not considering? I would suspect many people will rush out and buy old lenses secondhand and that would not be good news for the finances of Solms. This question is prompted by my own experience of this week while at holiday using my oldest lenses (35mm f2, 50mm f2, and 90mm f2) on the M8 ....the image quality is well "absolutely stunning" at various apertures..... yet these lenses are now 30 years old. My dealer says that some of the older Leica lenses have qualities in terms of warmth that are arguably better than the ASPH latest lenses but maybe that is going too far. Comments? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2009 Posted July 31, 2009 Hi Guest BigSplash, Take a look here M9 or M10 Full Frame - Why buy new lenses?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted July 31, 2009 Share #2 Posted July 31, 2009 Frank, most users have a full set of lenses already. The difference between the M8 cropped sensor and a full-format sensor is not that dramatic, certainly not in the "feel" of the lenses, to make people rush out and buy new ones. You say you use 35-50-90 on an M8 - well, that is basically the "ideal" set on a film M or a fullformat M9. Search the forum; you will find hundreds of threads on the relative fingerprint of older lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted July 31, 2009 Share #3 Posted July 31, 2009 Why are you so obsessed with Leica's finances Frank? This is a very thinly veiled attempt to undermine the company, in my most humble opinion. Particularly considering your line of expertise. Photographers buy new because they want a warranty, the latest release, or whatever. Your continual attacks regarding Leica's financial well-being are getting very boring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 31, 2009 Share #4 Posted July 31, 2009 Why are you so obsessed with Leica's finances Frank? This is a very thinly veiled attempt to undermine the company, in my most humble opinion. Particularly considering your line of expertise. Photographers buy new because they want a warranty, the latest release, or whatever. Your continual attacks regarding Leica's financial well-being are getting very boring. There are three issues I am trying to understand BESIDES the finance issue and if Leica will survive etc ...the subject of a different thread by the way:. 1 Why would I buy a full frame M? if I have a M8 already? Would I get full frame but most likely suffer degradation in other aspects with resect to the sensor or other attributes of the camera? 2 What would be my benefit to throw my 50mm in the bin and buy today's new 50mm f2 ? 3 What is the lens line up that one would ideally like to have with a full frame anyway? Obviously answers to the above will have an impact on Leica finances and yes that does interest me for reasons given many times already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2009 Share #5 Posted July 31, 2009 Why on earth should you throw it in the bin:confused:. If you do, please give me your adress and the collection day:rolleyes: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 31, 2009 Share #6 Posted July 31, 2009 Why on earth should you throw it in the bin:confused:. If you do, please give me your adress and the collection day:rolleyes: I was trying to provoke. I actually like my old lenses very much and while I can imagine that on an optical bench they may not perform like the newest breed from Leica they do have a character that I am very happy with. > In comparison to my daughter's Canon top of the line lenses it seems Leica lenses are phenomenal. They yield rich deep colous on one hand and deliver pastel colours with delicate hues on the other. They are sharp from edge to edge, and the detail of hairs on our new grandaughter's little head ...unbelievable. The worst critique i can give about these lenses is that I know "If the picture is no good it is my fault!". Jaapv some people on the threads have suggested that the 35mm Summilux ASPH and the Summicron ASPH are the ultimate....why are they such an improvement to my 30 year old Summicron lens? Is the improvement universally true at all apertures? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george + Posted July 31, 2009 Share #7 Posted July 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) There are three issues I am trying to understand BESIDES the finance issue and if Leica will survive etc ...the subject of a different thread by the way:. 1 Why would I buy a full frame M? if I have a M8 already? Would I get full frame but most likely suffer degradation in other aspects with resect to the sensor or other attributes of the camera? 2 What would be my benefit to throw my 50mm in the bin and buy today's new 50mm f2 ? 3 What is the lens line up that one would ideally like to have with a full frame anyway? Obviously answers to the above will have an impact on Leica finances and yes that does interest me for reasons given many times already. The answers from one who kept his 1971 M5 till the M8 came around are: 1. I might buy a FF M9 for fuller wide angle, but mostly for whatever advantages a three or four years newer design may have. If these are sufficient.( I do not understand your comment about degradations) 2. Probably very little. But quite a few people buy new lenses anyway. And keep or sell their old ones.. I have not heard of anyone willingly throwing old lenses away. 3. This depends on your own preferences. Mine change over time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted July 31, 2009 Share #8 Posted July 31, 2009 Why are you so obsessed with Leica's finances Frank? This is a very thinly veiled attempt to undermine the company, in my most humble opinion. Particularly considering your line of expertise. Photographers buy new because they want a warranty, the latest release, or whatever. Your continual attacks regarding Leica's financial well-being are getting very boring. I absolutelty agree and would highly appreciate actions by the admins. Regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2009 Share #9 Posted July 31, 2009 I was trying to provoke. I actually like my old lenses very much and while I can imagine that on an optical bench they may not perform like the newest breed from Leica they do have a character that I am very happy with. > In comparison to my daughter's Canon top of the line lenses it seems Leica lenses are phenomenal. They yield rich deep colous on one hand and deliver pastel colours with delicate hues on the other. They are sharp from edge to edge, and the detail of hairs on our new grandaughter's little head ...unbelievable. The worst critique i can give about these lenses is that I know "If the picture is no good it is my fault!". Jaapv some people on the threads have suggested that the 35mm Summilux ASPH and the Summicron ASPH are the ultimate....why are they such an improvement to my 30 year old Summicron lens? Is the improvement universally true at all apertures? I could counsel you to buy Erwin Puts' Leica Lens Compendium to find the answer to such questions, as the reply exceeds the limits of a post in a forum, but Leica links to part of his work here: http://en.leica-camera.com/assets/file/download.php?filename=file_1742.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 31, 2009 Share #10 Posted July 31, 2009 The answers from one who kept his 1971 M5 till the M8 came around are: 1. I might buy a FF M9 for fuller wide angle, but mostly for whatever advantages a three or four years newer design may have. If these are sufficient.( I do not understand your comment about degradations) 2. Probably very little. But quite a few people buy new lenses anyway. And keep or sell their old ones.. I have not heard of anyone willingly throwing old lenses away. 3. This depends on your own preferences. Mine change over time. The comment about degredations are that: > It could be that edge definition may drop off for a full frame, or other aberrations surface that is not good news. > There will be more pixels I guess for the full frame and that suggests better quality of image but tests between Phase One, and the top Canon and Nikon show that too many pixels is not necessarily driving better performance. > Will the processing needs of the full frame load the camera CPU, reduce battery life and force some processing in the camera that degrades the image. > The M8.2 does not have 1/8000 shutter speed and the M8 does for example so will the M10 have a lower speed. I am not a camera designer and I am sure that Leica R&D will take the necessary design trade offs but these very trade offs may be an issue in the final picture result. I wonder if people in this forum have views on what to expect Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 31, 2009 Share #11 Posted July 31, 2009 I could counsel you to buy Erwin Puts' Leica Lens Compendium to find the answer to such questions, as the reply exceeds the limits of a post in a forum, but Leica links to part of his work here: http://en.leica-camera.com/assets/file/download.php?filename=file_1742.pdf Wow great reference ...I shall go through this...Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2009 Share #12 Posted July 31, 2009 1- the whole point Leica has been working on these years - keep faith 2- Oversimplification. Pixels and iamge quality is another library full of books. 3- The M9 will have the Fujitsu Maestro chip which will move it into another league regarding processing power and power consumption. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 31, 2009 Share #13 Posted July 31, 2009 I absolutelty agree and would highly appreciate actions by the admins. Regards Steve I hope and that was my main intention that this thread tries to address what to consider as a full frame M becomes available. I wish to benefit from the knowledge that some people like Jaapv obviously have. That said I find your comment and that of RedBaron as amasing as there is a financial implication for the company, and therefore for the investment in Leica M equipment we have all made. I think it natural and healthy to understand these issue as I guess we all want Leica to succeed. Burying our heads in the sand is not a way forwad. I find it amasing that since yesterday morning there are already 9 pages on the S2 price announcement, and severe critique about what Leica is doing with this flagship initiative. People are ridiculing Leica for giving away Adobe Lightroom with such an expensive camera, or asking more money for the monitor screen. The flavour is one of too expensive, no market, poor announcement of the product etc etc. and worry that this will damage Leica as a company.. Yet no one is calling in the Admins. or attacking those that make these negative comments. Surely and I have seen people elsewhere make the comment that if a FF "M" existed then Solms would get a surge of revenue from camera sales for one year or so. But Solms could be selling new lenses (where they make their revenues ) against the secondhand market. I am interested to know if this is likely or is there something inherently much improved with the new lenses that will prevent this happening. Leica only sell half as many of the cheaper Summarit lenses compared to the modern types so maybe Leica fans will just go for the latest, most expensive and therefore presumably best lenses and will not buy secondhand. I have no feeling for this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 31, 2009 Share #14 Posted July 31, 2009 Leica only sell half as many of the cheaper Summarit lenses compared to the modern types so maybe Leica fans will just go for the latest, most expensive and therefore presumably best lenses and will not buy secondhand. I have no feeling for this. First I bought a second hand M2 + summaron 35/2.8 & after shoorting 2-3 films I was firmly hooked. Then I bought a new M8 and 28/2 cron ASPH as that was the only lens they had in stock at the time...... Next a second hand tele-elmarit 90/2.8 and a tri-elmar 35-50-28. So the second hand market is good as it makes Leica stuff somewhat more affordable. Would I have bought the new M8 + lens without the M2 experience? Probably not. The M2 price was at an acceptable entrance level. My next purchase will probably be a 50lux ASPH or a Noctilux 50/0.95 ASPH but I am not in a hurry. So second hand stuff is essential to get new customers convinced that Leica prices are actually worth it. Then the urge to get a few of the ultimate prime lenses at some point is strong. The older lenses are very very good as well and in some cases preferable depending on the atmosphere you want for your image. Bottom line: 1) the second hand market is good for Leica's turnover in the long run. 2) the fast primes exist and therefore will be sold. Why climb Mt. Everest? "Because it is there" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted July 31, 2009 Share #15 Posted July 31, 2009 Surely and I have seen people elsewhere make the comment that if a FF "M" existed then Solms would get a surge of revenue from camera sales for one year or so. But Solms could be selling new lenses (where they make their revenues ) against the secondhand market. I am interested to know if this is likely or is there something inherently much improved with the new lenses that will prevent this happening. Well, if a full frame M9 were to attract more customers, then these new customers would want lenses - there are plenty of secondhand lenses about, but the prices are already so high as to make it attractive to many (me at least) to pay a couple of hundred dollars for a warranty and the satisfaction of being the first owner. If the full frame M9 were only to sell to existing M8 customers, then there would still be some shuffling about of lenses. Leica only sell half as many of the cheaper Summarit lenses compared to the modern types so maybe Leica fans will just go for the latest, most expensive and therefore presumably best lenses and will not buy secondhand. I have no feeling for this. I think you're right - most people who can afford that sort of camera can afford the expensive lenses. I find it really odd that on the one hand everyone talks about how lovely the 'feel' of older lenses is . . . and then they ignore the summarits, which are cheaper than those older lenses secondhand and often have the same feel. I recently bought the 35 summarit rather on the spur of the moment, and I much prefer it to the 'cron (which is twice the price). As far as wondering about restrictions / functions / speed of a prospective M9 - surely that's leica's problem until we see one (after which time it might be our problem!). Speculating now that there might be too many pixels, or that it might be too slow, seems completely pointless! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt Calahan Posted July 31, 2009 Share #16 Posted July 31, 2009 If a full-frame M series camera was introduced, I'd still be interested in the 18 mm. So yes, buying new lenses is still a reality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccis Posted July 31, 2009 Share #17 Posted July 31, 2009 My theory is that when the M9 comes out we will see lenses that are not the most sought after for the M8, hugely popular with the M9 (even if they are not the fastest in the Leica arsenal)... Some of these are the WATE, 28 Elmarit, 135 APO and the small Summicrons (35 and 50). I also see the Noctilux going back to be a specialty lens as you'll really will not need anything faster than the 50 lux. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 31, 2009 Share #18 Posted July 31, 2009 First I bought a second hand M2 + summaron 35/2.8 & after shoorting 2-3 films I was firmly hooked. Then I bought a new M8 and 28/2 cron ASPH as that was the only lens they had in stock at the time...... Next a second hand tele-elmarit 90/2.8 and a tri-elmar 35-50-28. So the second hand market is good as it makes Leica stuff somewhat more affordable. Would I have bought the new M8 + lens without the M2 experience? Probably not. The M2 price was at an acceptable entrance level. My next purchase will probably be a 50lux ASPH or a Noctilux 50/0.95 ASPH but I am not in a hurry. So second hand stuff is essential to get new customers convinced that Leica prices are actually worth it. Then the urge to get a few of the ultimate prime lenses at some point is strong. The older lenses are very very good as well and in some cases preferable depending on the atmosphere you want for your image. Bottom line: 1) the second hand market is good for Leica's turnover in the long run. 2) the fast primes exist and therefore will be sold. Why climb Mt. Everest? "Because it is there" I guess that I am following a similar thought process to you. I bought my first Leica (an M4) secondhand with its 50 f2 some 30 years ago, and lived with that for maybe 3 years...then when I had some money I bought a 21mm, 35mm, 90mm, 135mm all in one go, which probably with hindsight was stupid to do all at once as it took me a long time to learn the character of each lens, and how to frame my shots for the best composure. Over the next 30 years I have added various new lenses and a few secondhand. My favourites: I like the TriElmar (35-50-28) for travel photography and think Leica should redsign with available glass and reintroduce it. As for the new Noctilux at £6795 I am sure it is great but why not go after a used Noctilux. This is what I did and I am well pleased...it is a super lens. ...and on a M8 it is like the 75mm I used to use for portraits on the M6 I also like the 75mm Summilux that I bought when it was still available....it works great on the M8 (gives about 100mm) and M6 for portraits....and I am sure judging from the results Brett is getting....... his 75mm (f2) ASPH looks like a great lens also.(see LFI wedding shots) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 31, 2009 Share #19 Posted July 31, 2009 If a full-frame M series camera was introduced, I'd still be interested in the 18 mm. So yes, buying new lenses is still a reality. Actually the 18mm is for me the most interesting one in the Leica line up, and i am thinking about getting one. That said a 15mm would be even wider and therefore better! Surprised that they have not made this as both Zeiss and Voigtlander have been selling these for some time (without rangefinder coupling I understand). I would also like to see a fisheye within the line up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 31, 2009 Share #20 Posted July 31, 2009 .... along with some bellows, and don't forget the Visoflex, Frank. I've just bought an 18mm, great little lens, I like the way they've copied the filter design we developed here for the WATE, though it's a bit cheeky of them to have patented it. Perhaps John Milich and I should ask for a royalty... I don't think you'll see a 15mm from Leica, a 16mm Super-Elmar is more likely IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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