SteveYork Posted August 2, 2009 Share #281 Posted August 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) It would be easy to dismiss the non-pro market but I believe that there are many people who will buy the camera just as part of their hobby. I've been involved with enough 'expensive hobbies' to know that there are a huge number of people out there with ordinary looking houses and lives but then a £60k racing car tucked in the garage, or £25k's worth of fishing tackle, or a £10k push-bike - or £20k's worth of Leica lenses or whatever. If you're having fun taking your photos and pushing the boundaries to see what you can achieve and want the very best images I just don't see where all the fuss is - it's still the price of a family car and so it's still affordable. You've just got to want it and be serious about your hobby. From a 'pro' point of view I can't comment because I'm not a 'pro' - but I run a small family firm with just a handful of employees and what I can say is that the price of a piece of equipment like this - in the scheme of running a business for a year and especially once tax write down is taken into account - is not going to make the difference between succeeding and failing. I would imagine that any well established photography practice will be just the same. It'll be a question of whether the camera produces images that are sufficiently impressive and digitally workable to give you the edge. Certainly the small format sized body must be an edge? Good luck to Leica with the S2 and well done for having the guts to design and produce something high end that is different and interesting. Here's the difference with many of those expensive hobbies. Boats, guitars, cars, even racing bicycles, -- they all have a long useful life. In many respects, they will outlive their owner. In some cases, they appreciate over time, greatly. The same is not true for digital photography equipment. And the implication is that amateurs, even avid crazy types, are less likely to put money into stuff that will just vanish over time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 2, 2009 Posted August 2, 2009 Hi SteveYork, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Steve Ash Posted August 2, 2009 Share #282 Posted August 2, 2009 The annual cost of boats are about 10% of the initial price. I will never understand the sense of ownership compared to renting one when you actually use it but this is a different story. It keeps to be noted that there is a lot of money around. The only pity is that it is in the wrong pockets. Regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick parker Posted August 2, 2009 Share #283 Posted August 2, 2009 Sapphire is not just a piece of good quality glass. It's Leica's new philosophy. Gee R10dreamer i was being sarcastic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted August 2, 2009 Share #284 Posted August 2, 2009 It would be easy to dismiss the non-pro market but I believe that there are many people who will buy the camera just as part of their hobby. I've been involved with enough 'expensive hobbies' to know that there are a huge number of people out there with ordinary looking houses and lives but then a £60k racing car tucked in the garage, or £25k's worth of fishing tackle, or a £10k push-bike - or £20k's worth of Leica lenses or whatever. If you're having fun taking your photos and pushing the boundaries to see what you can achieve and want the very best images I just don't see where all the fuss is - it's still the price of a family car and so it's still affordable. You've just got to want it and be serious about your hobby. From a 'pro' point of view I can't comment because I'm not a 'pro' - but I run a small family firm with just a handful of employees and what I can say is that the price of a piece of equipment like this - in the scheme of running a business for a year and especially once tax write down is taken into account - is not going to make the difference between succeeding and failing. I would imagine that any well established photography practice will be just the same. It'll be a question of whether the camera produces images that are sufficiently impressive and digitally workable to give you the edge. Certainly the small format sized body must be an edge? Good luck to Leica with the S2 and well done for having the guts to design and produce something high end that is different and interesting. excellent post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddp Posted August 2, 2009 Share #285 Posted August 2, 2009 There's a similar discussion of the S2 and its pricing on the Luminous Landscape forum: Leica S2 Pricing - Luminous Landscape Forum For the perspective of what I believe the target market is for the S-system, read Dermot Cleary's post on page 6 of this LL thread. If you were to believe the internet forums the S2 is a boat anchor, lame duck, white elephant, etc. however is seems that the target market is spending more time working and less time on internet forums. Doug...thank you for that link. That pretty much hits the nail on the head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted August 2, 2009 Share #286 Posted August 2, 2009 Sorry for my lack of input and involvement in this thread since posting prices in the wee hours of Thrusday morning. I know that some have wondered why I was MIA. The reasons for my absence are twofold. 1) I have been extremely busy during the last few days. I spent all of Thursday, Friday, and Saturday touching base with my S2 pre-order list. I just haven't had the time to read everything or post. In fact, I've only been able to get through 2/3rds of my list. 2) Even if I did have the time, many are so entrenched in their viewpoints that little or nothing I might have said would really matter. My input would be conveniently dismissed as "marketing hype" or "bs" or whatever. That being said, I'm sure some here are interested to know how my conversations over the last few days have gone. Maybe I live in a bubble, but my reality has not coincided with what is happening online. Of all my pre-orders, no one was insulted, offended, shocked, etc. by the S2 pricing. In fact, no one backed out or cancelled due to price. All those that were interested in getting an S2, are still excited to get one in October. There are a couple who will wait for the 30-90 to be available. Everyone wants to see final specs (within a week or two) and see real images, just as I do. But, the price was expected. Part of this was due to my comminicating a realistic price for last 6-9 months in all my conversations. I told anyone who asked that the price would be about $20K for the body and about $4-6K for the lenses. I've seen the Euro go from about $1.25 to the current $1.43. Leica told me that at anything above $1.35, they'd have to adjust pricing. So, the 10-15% higher price for the body was somewhat expected. Leica has clearly stated that fashion, beauty, advertising, and commercial are the main target markets, as well as advanced amateurs who want the best balance of ease, handling, and image quailty. In reviewing my list, I'd say that Leica has so far done a good job, as I have representation from all of these specialties, as well as high-end professional landscape photographers (those shooting for coffee-table books and grand-format commercial prints sold through galleries and/or corporate decorators). There appears to be some confusion over the warranty and add-on service packages. To clarify, the body and lenses come with a standard 12-month warranty (same as a Phase Classic warranty or standard Hasselblad warranty). The service packages are optional add-ons just like Hassy's Camera Care Plan or Phase's Value Added Warranty, which also cost several thousand $$. The Premium Service Package includes: - Extra year of transferable warranty - Camera swap service during the first three months (no repairs, just a new camera the next day) - Special phone hotline with dedicated S2 specialist - guaranteed spare parts availibility for 6 years - 30% discount on non-warranty repairs (ex. dropping camera) The Platinum Service Package includes: (same as above), plus... - free of charge maintenance including one shutter and/or central shutter replacement (doesn't have to be broken) - free of charge loaner service during repairs Keep in mind, also, that customers who purchase from me can get loaners or rentals from me at no charge regardless of service level, and can reach me 24/7 for help and support. That is just being a good dealer, rather than a box mover. I'd say that the Premium package is plenty for most individual shooters. The Platinum is geared more towards rental studios and busy top-tier professionals. $495 for lenses and $1,495 for the body isn't really that unreasonable for the Premium option. Yes, Lightroom will come bundled with the camera. There will also be tethering software that can control all functions of the camera, including camera focus, all settings, etc. The application doesn't do RAW conversion, but rather controls the camera and deposits images in whatever folder you choose. Hot-folder-capable applications like LR, Aperture, or even C1 can be used - this is the user's choice. As to why Leica didn't bundle the 70mm with the camera, you might be interested to learn that only about 50% of my customers chose to order the 70mm with the camera. The fact is that everyone is different. How would you feel about being required to buy an M8.2 with a 35mm Summicron? Sure, a certain percentage would like it (like me), but most would prefer to pick their own lens package. Same with the S2. Regarding switching from other systems, I have taken trade-ins on two H3DII-39s, one H3DII-31, one H3DII-50, a D3x, and many other assorted items. Other customers have already sold H3DII-39 systems, at least one P45+, and Canon/Nikon systems to fund the S2. So, obviously, for these folks, there is enough reason to switch platforms. The reality is that we will see final specs within the next week or two and images before camera availibility. Of course, no one wants to drop $30K on a system without seeing images. But, most know what to expect: - Lenses without compromise that can be shot at any aperture (not just f/11) - The smallest, lightest, fastest MF system and the only one with weather sealing in a fully modern body - 1/500th of a sec flash sync with CS lenses and 1/400th of a sec max shutter with FP shutter (easy as flipping a switch) - Large, bright, hi-res LCD - Accurate AF (that doesn't require a 3x loupe) - Minimal mirror slap If you've handled the S2 for any amount of time and have experience with other MF systems, you can immediately tell a difference. Since switching to SSDs in my new laptop, I can't ever imaging going back to a platter-based HDD. It would be painful. Likewise, I think that once photographers start using the S2 they will have a very difficult time going back to other systems. Maybe they get the job done, but not as smoothly and seamlessly as they might with the S2. As some here have said, if the IQ is there (in addition to the ergos), the camera will indeed sell. And, sell very well at that. Leica's imminent demise is grossly overstated. I am not trying to "sell" you guys on the S2. I honestly think that the camera has done a great job of selling itself already. It is not for everyone, just as a $40K P65+ isn't for everyone, or an $11K Profoto Pro-8a power pack, or an $11K Profoto 10' Para Umbrella, etc. I know that many would like to have a chance to use the S2, and would like the price to be under $15K. I'd like a Porsche Cayman S to be the same price as an Accord, but I doubt going on a Porsche forum and convincing everyone there that the Cayman should sell for $25K is going to change anything. A Porsche is a Porsche and priced as such. Likewise, the S2 offers a certain value proposition to photographers and is also priced accordingly. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted August 2, 2009 Share #287 Posted August 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dave, thanks very much for taking the time to make such a detailed post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 2, 2009 Share #288 Posted August 2, 2009 Yes, thanks Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted August 2, 2009 Share #289 Posted August 2, 2009 Dave, you may be right, only time will tell; however early adopters usually pay both literally and figuratively a disproportionate amount for bragging rights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted August 2, 2009 Share #290 Posted August 2, 2009 Thanks David. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 2, 2009 Share #291 Posted August 2, 2009 Yes, very interesting, David, thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted August 2, 2009 Share #292 Posted August 2, 2009 Thank you David for that very clarifying post of yours. What I learn from it is that apparently there are people around who are willing to trade in their Hasselblads and preorder a 30 K camera system the specs of which have not even been published. No one has ever seen a Raw file from the S2, no one has ever seen anything but a prototype of body or lenses - and yet there seem to be people who order the camera bona fide. And I thought most of the people on this forum were Leica fans! I think, from now on I'll hold my tongue and watch. One last thing, though, before I shut up: In view of what happens with the S2: isn't it amazing how absolutely sure Leica is that no one would by an R10 - simply because 6.000 € would be too expensive? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 2, 2009 Share #293 Posted August 2, 2009 David's post does give me the impression there are indeed many folks who don't actually use their Hasselblads or Phase backs so they can sell them and wait 2+ months for the S2 ... and the initial offering of lenses may not be what they want to use. This again proves that my theory is correct, selling 1000 cameras per year at (virtually) any given price is way too easy. It may actually build up huge back orders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted August 2, 2009 Share #294 Posted August 2, 2009 David's post does give me the impression there are indeed many folks who don't actually use their Hasselblads or Phase backs so they can sell them and wait 2+ months for the S2 ... and the initial offering of lenses may not be what they want to use. This again proves that my theory is correct, selling 1000 cameras per year at (virtually) any given price is way too easy. It may actually build up huge back orders. What's this idea that Leica only want to sell 1000 S2s per year? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted August 2, 2009 Share #295 Posted August 2, 2009 What's this idea that Leica only want to sell 1000 S2s per year?I would be surprised if they could make that many without extra personel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 2, 2009 Share #296 Posted August 2, 2009 One last thing, though, before I shut up: In view of what happens with the S2: isn't it amazing how absolutely sure Leica is that no one would by an R10 - simply because 6.000 € would be too expensive? I still haven't given up hope...one reason why I'm glad to see some optimism from David. Leica has surprised us more than once...why not a surprise on the upside sometime down the road? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted August 2, 2009 Share #297 Posted August 2, 2009 Leica has tossed the amateur SLR user to the side of the rode. Stop holding your breath. It's not going to happen. It's time to toss Leica to the side of the rode if you want a DSLR. If you're a professional, then that's a whole different situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted August 2, 2009 Share #298 Posted August 2, 2009 There always have been and there always will be people that want to be the first to own something. That first rush will not be what proves Leica right or wrong. 6-12 months down the road we will see what we see. Why would any sane person sell there Phase or Hassey for an unknown system on reputation only? Why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 2, 2009 Share #299 Posted August 2, 2009 To Steve....Not holding my breath at all. Next step for me is to evaluate M9. No rush there either, since the M8.2 (and many of its film predecessors) have served just fine. I merely have learned not to be surprised by anything. Plus, I think any success with the S2 will allow those learnings and technologies to be applied to whatever comes down the road. The glass is half full for me. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted August 3, 2009 Share #300 Posted August 3, 2009 Once again David, thank you for your sincere efforts and time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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