haribo Posted August 1, 2009 Share #261 Posted August 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm wondering what the reaction in the Hasselblad, Mamiya, Phase camps is: quaking in their boots, breathing a sigh of relief or didn't care before and don't care now. I am spending lately a lot of time in the "MF world" doing research for my own purchase intentions. Frankly speaking, the big, bad wolf is not Leica to them. Never was. From what I've been reading the big scare going around the corporate floors in the MF camp is the D3X and Canon's upcoming counterpart, the 1DSMK4. Reason why is that the gap between those systems is getting closer and closer and what's left in IQ difference is easier and easier being made up with software. Considering the rampant changes in the media where most of today's professional photography is needed/being purchased, for many the phrase lxlim brought up so wisely "good enough" is becoming the true decision maker when buying. With that in mind, it is not really important to wonder if the S2 will be obsolete or not in 2 years time. The real question seems to be, whether the entire MF market will still exist in 2 years..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 1, 2009 Posted August 1, 2009 Hi haribo, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
haribo Posted August 1, 2009 Share #262 Posted August 1, 2009 No MF vendor (no camera vendor at all, for that matter) is giving away lenses for free. Hasselblad, for example, are bundling all their H3DII cameras with the HC 2.8/80 mm. While the H3DII-31 bundle was offered for about 11,995 Euro (plus VAT), Hasselblad Germany was offering the camera without the lens for 9,995 Euro, so the price of the “free” lens was 2000 Euro. You can get that lens on its own for 1630 Euro now. That might be the case in Germany but not in North America. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 1, 2009 Share #263 Posted August 1, 2009 In the short term, I don't think they are really worried but some of the things they can do and are doing: 1. Scorched earth tactics. Sell at really attractive prices in the short term. Charge higher services or replacement parts in the longer term. 2. Build exclusive relationships with all major rental houses and block new comers. 3. Buy over sensor suppliers and make the sensors exclusive to block availability of sensors. 4. Buy over camera manufacturers and software houses to build integrated solutions. These are essentially defensive moves. It does not mean they are quaking in their boots though. To attack would be to focus on Leica's weaknesses and publicise them. Make every molehill a mountain. The question is what is Leica's strategy to counter these. 1. Will not engage in a pricing war because its not their market. 2. Will not bother with rental houses but do direct sales unless rental houses are interested. 3. I don't see Leica or their competitors having enough money to buy over a sensor fab plant. 4. Already a camera manufacturer and optics specialist. Leica claims their lenses are good enough that it is not dependent on vendor solutions to correct lens faults. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 1, 2009 Share #264 Posted August 1, 2009 @Harald Benz: I might just point out that with the CFV-39 back for classic Hassy bodies, (or the predecessor CFV and CFV-II) one can shoot Zeiss glass with a Hassy back with full functionality (no adapter or separate shutter cocking needed) CFV-39 is square format at 29 Mpixels or (about) 36 x 48 @ 39 Mpixels. CFV-39 So Zeiss glass with a Hassy-built back and camera is as easy as ever. Even 1962 Zeiss glass. All true but you're forgetting one thing. The better new sensors are becoming the more vital becomes the fact of an integrated, digital solution. Remember the huge back-focusing issue many complaint about here with the M8? Point is, there was never anything wrong with the lenses. With film nobody ever noticed it. Digital sensors on the other hand are so much more precise and flatter than film could ever be inserted, that's why all over sudden many flaws got exposed. Bottomline is by using what you're suggesting, one has a viable alternative. But it is a dead-end road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 1, 2009 Share #265 Posted August 1, 2009 Those of you who are concerned the s2 will sell so poorly that all Leica will fall, have gotten my attention. Therefore to insure Leica will not fall in the next year, I plan to personally buyout the first quarter production which is equivalent to the first years sales in the USA. How many S2 bodies is that? A mere 250 cameras. I personally will insure Leica will be OK for the first year as a gift to any of you who are worried for Leica's survival. This will cost me $6 million but consider it just helping you out. And speaking of out, the numbers are so small in annual sales that Leica would have been nuts to cut the price, as this camera will be sold out by December at this price. It would be even more helpful if you shipped some of those unused S2s to me. I will be most grateful. I can see your confidence in the product but this offer is not helping your case. If you are a multi-millionaire you are not likely to understand the average pro's current situation. Its not really a matter of Leica survival but a pro's survival with the best tools. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 1, 2009 Share #266 Posted August 1, 2009 I would think that Hasselblad, Mamiya and Phase are happy. Leica's price structure p/pixel doesn't threaten them at all and they have years of equipment and accessory advantages over Leica. And then there is the future upgrade path. Argue all you want, there will always be technical upgrades in the digital era and Leica is landlocked with the S2. At this moment, I have dropped any plans of buying an S2 (for many reasons) and am leaning towards Hasselblad or Phase. I just don't like how I have been treat by Leica with their R?? decision and now their pricing, service, lens cost of their S2. I don't need jewelry. I need equipment that gets the job done. Hasselblad, Mamiya and Phase will only be really happy if the sales bring in good profits and market share in the long term. Can a Canon or Nikon do the job in the meantime? I mean drop MF altogether. Even a Hasselblad, Mamiya or Phase become really expensive items if budgets shrink by 90 - 95%. It might be fun to see how low prices will go though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted August 1, 2009 Share #267 Posted August 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) this is a very accurate analysis. the <40mpx offerings will become obsolete when canon and -a bit later- nikon bring their new flagships. there will still be room for the 60mpx DBs (for a few selected art photographers who need superlarge prints), but it is not clear for how long they will remain economically sustainable. peter I am spending lately a lot of time in the "MF world" doing research for my own purchase intentions. Frankly speaking, the big, bad wolf is not Leica to them. Never was.From what I've been reading the big scare going around the corporate floors in the MF camp is the D3X and Canon's upcoming counterpart, the 1DSMK4. Reason why is that the gap between those systems is getting closer and closer and what's left in IQ difference is easier and easier being made up with software. Considering the rampant changes in the media where most of today's professional photography is needed/being purchased, for many the phrase lxlim brought up so wisely "good enough" is becoming the true decision maker when buying. With that in mind, it is not really important to wonder if the S2 will be obsolete or not in 2 years time. The real question seems to be, whether the entire MF market will still exist in 2 years..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 1, 2009 Share #268 Posted August 1, 2009 "this is a very accurate analysis. the <40mpx offerings will become obsolete when canon and -a bit later- nikon bring their new flagships" Rent a P40+ /the cheapest and smallest current MF-solution with modern sensor-architecture) with only 40MP and some Digitar/HR-lenses and take some actual pictures in the real world so this discussion would come to an abrupt end, finally... Forget about the megapixels, digicIX-processors, interpolation algorithms, nano-coated-lenses - JUST TRY IT! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted August 1, 2009 Share #269 Posted August 1, 2009 There's a similar discussion of the S2 and its pricing on the Luminous Landscape forum: Leica S2 Pricing - Luminous Landscape Forum For the perspective of what I believe the target market is for the S-system, read Dermot Cleary's post on page 6 of this LL thread. If you were to believe the internet forums the S2 is a boat anchor, lame duck, white elephant, etc. however is seems that the target market is spending more time working and less time on internet forums. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick parker Posted August 1, 2009 Share #270 Posted August 1, 2009 Sapphire is not just a piece of good quality glass. It's Leica's new philosophy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted August 1, 2009 Share #271 Posted August 1, 2009 Sapphire is not just a piece of good quality glass. It's Leica's new philosophy. wrong. sapphire is glass to protect the screen. and it is worthless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjv Posted August 2, 2009 Share #272 Posted August 2, 2009 Now that the initial shock of the S2 prices has worn off I feel like I've gained some perspective and my outlook on "life" is back on the level. Honestly, I think the S2 is expensive. Having said that I think it seems like a great product that would suit my way of working down to the ground. I'm not a 'blad / Mamiya legacy user so trading up or across to buy into the system wouldn't hurt me in loss of value from other gear. For me it's an issue of weather or not I'd want to pay the extra for a larger sensor camera that is weather sealed, more versatile ergonomically, a 3x2 ratio sensor and fully integrated. For me the extra cost of these features would be well worth at least considering - assuming for a moment the quality of the files and service level is as promised. I wish Leica luck and success. For now I will support them by sticking with M series gear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted August 2, 2009 Share #273 Posted August 2, 2009 Maybe the "REAL medium format is 60 megapixels - and that's barely enough" group and the "Full-frame 35mm will bury MF" group should, you know, step outside to settle that question. Once it is answered, then something sensible can be said about the S2. So long as the argument seems to be that the S2 is simultaneously too good and not good enough, clarity is lacking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted August 2, 2009 Share #274 Posted August 2, 2009 In order to more fairly judge the pricing on this camera and assuming (I know how dangerous that is) that its IQ is all that Leica claims it will be, just what fashion publications demand this quality level? I can't think of any consumer magazines that have the need. Certainly not W, Vogue, Condé Nast, or L'Officiel. The paper and print quality of the magazines these days is not the way it used to be with heavy stock and high gloss pages and fine printing with careful color matching. So, my question is who is willing to pay the price for MF images and if a competing well known photographer offered to do the shoot for less using a Nikon D3x (for example) becasue his costs are lower would he get the business over an equivalent photographer using MF gear and charging more? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted August 2, 2009 Share #275 Posted August 2, 2009 It would be easy to dismiss the non-pro market but I believe that there are many people who will buy the camera just as part of their hobby. I've been involved with enough 'expensive hobbies' to know that there are a huge number of people out there with ordinary looking houses and lives but then a £60k racing car tucked in the garage, or £25k's worth of fishing tackle, or a £10k push-bike - or £20k's worth of Leica lenses or whatever. If you're having fun taking your photos and pushing the boundaries to see what you can achieve and want the very best images I just don't see where all the fuss is - it's still the price of a family car and so it's still affordable. You've just got to want it and be serious about your hobby. From a 'pro' point of view I can't comment because I'm not a 'pro' - but I run a small family firm with just a handful of employees and what I can say is that the price of a piece of equipment like this - in the scheme of running a business for a year and especially once tax write down is taken into account - is not going to make the difference between succeeding and failing. I would imagine that any well established photography practice will be just the same. It'll be a question of whether the camera produces images that are sufficiently impressive and digitally workable to give you the edge. Certainly the small format sized body must be an edge? Good luck to Leica with the S2 and well done for having the guts to design and produce something high end that is different and interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinwen Posted August 2, 2009 Share #276 Posted August 2, 2009 How can you find The price is quite reasonable for what you get. and not knowing the specs ? We just got prices, still not all the specs. How many are you going to buy ? you need at least two for your "African Safaris" with a bunch of long tele lenses ! Can't wait to see your pictures ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted August 2, 2009 Share #277 Posted August 2, 2009 In order to more fairly judge the pricing on this camera and assuming (I know how dangerous that is) that its IQ is all that Leica claims it will be, just what fashion publications demand this quality level? I can't think of any consumer magazines that have the need. Certainly not W, Vogue, Condé Nast, or L'Officiel. The paper and print quality of the magazines these days is not the way it used to be with heavy stock and high gloss pages and fine printing with careful color matching. So, my question is who is willing to pay the price for MF images and if a competing well known photographer offered to do the shoot for less using a Nikon D3x (for example) becasue his costs are lower would he get the business over an equivalent photographer using MF gear and charging more? The cost of camera bodies and lenses is of marginal significance within the context of a high end fashion shoot. In a similar vein, the fees of top fashion photographers will have little to no correlation with the cost of the camera gear they are using. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 2, 2009 Share #278 Posted August 2, 2009 I can't think of any consumer magazines that have the need. Certainly not W, Vogue, Condé Nast, or L'Officiel. The paper and print quality of the magazines these days is not the way it used to be with heavy stock and high gloss pages and fine printing with careful color matching From what you say that means that a fashion shoot could be shot on a couple of entry level Canon or Nikon bodies - certainly either of those will give good A4 sized results with a good lens attached. Is that what's used on the majority of fashion shoots? That's a rhetorical question, we both know the answer. I think that there are occasions where being 'good enough' isn't the driving force behind equipment selection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted August 2, 2009 Share #279 Posted August 2, 2009 That's a rhetorical question, we both know the answer. I think that there are occasions where being 'good enough' isn't the driving force behind equipment selection.For a fashion shoot all the other costs are so large that saving money on the photo gear is not even worth considering. Nevertheless I am sure that there are plenty of pictures published in glossy magazines that are made with DSLRs (FF and cropped), cellphones, P&S etc. albeit probably not at the 'real' photo sessions. or £25k's worth of fishing tackle ridiculous, who would spend that sort of money on a pole with a bit of string..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 2, 2009 Share #280 Posted August 2, 2009 For a fashion shoot all the other costs are so large that saving money on the photo gear is not even worth considering. Nevertheless I am sure that there are plenty of pictures published in glossy magazines that are made with DSLRs (FF and cropped), cellphones, P&S etc. albeit probably not at the 'real' photo sessions I'm sure there are, which is why I used the word 'majority' <grin>. How much does a good stylist/make up artist cost? My guess is a lot of money. Personally though I could never afford one, I'm looking forward to seeing some samples from the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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