haribo Posted July 31, 2009 Share #221 Posted July 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) BTW I really love the LFI piece. I think it is very impressive. Now your postings make sense to me, I was wondering why you seem to bash Gentlemen and me for no apparent reason. And I also want to distance myself from the posts that followed by G_V. That is just not how you should interact. It seems to be very hard to bring people together that chose their tools for very different reasons. It's a matter of fact though that every Leica customer, whether he is a pro or a show-off helps the company to stick around and spend R&D money on the M9 that you are waiting for. Well, I am not exactly waiting for the M9. I do like my M8 as is but would switch to a future M9 if the camera is worth going for it. Upgrading to the M8.2 was for me certainly not worth the money. Rather spent the money on another lens... PS: Thanks for your compliment. I appreciate it. Here's something new to look at. If you happen to like it, feel free to vote for it. Or buy it... Sorry, damn link is not working ... here it goes. http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/770618 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2009 Posted July 31, 2009 Hi haribo, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lxlim Posted July 31, 2009 Share #222 Posted July 31, 2009 Yes! Very true. Big cheers to Leica. Hip Hip Hooray!!!!You really showed Nikon or Canon how things get done. Kidding aside, I think we all appreciate what Leica has accomplished. But don't you think the entire photographic community would appreciate Leica's feast even more if it in fact would make any (business) sense to buy the S2 and use it???? I believe a lot of photographers would love to use it and do incredible work with it. Like any other camera the S2 is just a tool. An expensive one but nevertheless it is only a tool. Exclusiveness comes with what a photographer is able to do with it, whatever tool he/she chooses. I doubt the S2 is going to make someone a Maplethorpe or Avedon, if that person doesn't have it in himself. I can understand the sentiment myself about how many would love to use it and being able to create beautiful work with an S2. Unfortunately, I think Leica is apt to think like a business and let market forces decide who is the best. The "Best" can afford it. A concept I rarely agree with though. There are many markets that just cannot pay enough to justify an S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted July 31, 2009 Share #223 Posted July 31, 2009 ... But a company probably shouldn't "flip the bird" to an existing customer base in favor of a yet unrealized new one. I know the tenor of this thread is about the price of the S2 body, but this price, coupled with the company's decision to drop the R line (after stating repeatedly that an R10 is on the horizon), for some, is --in effect -- tantamount to the company "flipping them the bird." Basically, Leica is saying "we no longer care about R users." ... Glad you mentioned it... I would better understand the S2 positioning "IF" the R line was still in existence and/or the R10 was still on the books. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted July 31, 2009 Share #224 Posted July 31, 2009 I find it VERY difficult to believe that the images from the S2 are going to be better (from a technical stand point) than Hassy or Phase. Just can't imagine it. Also, I don't know about the rest of you but I wouldn't feel real comfortable traveling/walking around with $30,000-$40,000 worth of gear shooting in the streets or parks. I know there is insurance but if I decide to go the S2 route that piece of gear isn't leaving my studio without an escort. So, Leica seems to be trying to keep its reputation for jewelry intact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted July 31, 2009 Share #225 Posted July 31, 2009 In a year's time, we will all have a different and more valid viewpoint of the S2 system I am sure. Until then, all it will be is numbers, even when those lame "test" shots come out. Personally, I have much better things to do with my time than speculate and complain about a camera that has yet to fall into super talented hands and be shown in the form of finished and fantastic images. Truly, nothing else matters, not even the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Baker Posted July 31, 2009 Share #226 Posted July 31, 2009 FYI, Hasselblad discontinued all models prior to their new H3DII system. The new system is a closed one, which means it can only be used with lenses made for it. And those come from Fuji. Nothing wrong with that, just not the Zeiss lenses it seems you'd like to use. You're not right on that point I must say, Hasselblad produce an adaptor called the "CF" adaptor, it is designed to allow Zeiss "C" and "CF" lenses to be used on ALL "H" series bodies. Focusing is manual only as is the shutter cocking, not as cumbersome as it sounds though and the results are very good, I know ... I use one. Yes the "H3" series is closed but that is regarding 3rd party backs not 'blads own "V" series Zeiss legacy lenses. Kind regards Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 31, 2009 Share #227 Posted July 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) My experience shooting MF and 35mm tells me that for people photography it may be tricky to consistently get the focus exact, and thus get the most out of the camera, when shooting with the S2 even stopped down and using longish lenses. The example below shows how easy it is for the focus to change a fraction of an inch even on at f11 on a FF 35mm camera using a 105mm focal length. You or the subject just has to move imperceptibly. And don't think you will be able to detect this fine a level of focus via the viewfinder. Having the potential for very high resolution is one thing, getting it is another. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/92029-s2-available-in-october-starting-price-of-%C2%A315996/?do=findComment&comment=979462'>More sharing options...
Simon Baker Posted July 31, 2009 Share #228 Posted July 31, 2009 Wilson, The S2 is not competing against the Hassi HD3-II 31. The 31MP doesn't even come close to the resolution and image quality of the 37.5MP S2. Add the poor quality of the japanese made lenses that need to be corrected in post processing and you have two systems that do not play in the same league. A Leica Insider What complete crap ! and the sheer arrogance of such a statement. If you are indeed an insider it is worrying, as verbally bashing your opposition instead of concentrating on what you see are the advantages to your own system is ( to me at least ) a sign of weakness. NOW before you no doubt frantically type your reply read this .... I am no Leica basher and I want Leica to succeed in everything they do. In the last 8 months I have bought 2 M8, a 18mm, 28 'cron, 50 'lux asph, 75mm 'cron, 135 APO My Leica lenses are truly wonderful but so are my Fuji/Blad lenses. The 'Blad lenses are indeed made in Japan but they are Hasselblad designs ( just like Zeiss ZM etc are Zeiss designs ), to state that they are poor quality is beyond believe ... why then is the "H" system so widely adopted? Perhaps it is the enviable widespread market acceptance of the "H" system that leads you to bash it ? I hope Leica succeed with the S2, after all I guess a lot is riding on it, but I have to say I would think it sales will mostly come from the "well heeled" enthusiast market as a working pro using a current 'blad or Phase with several lenses would need a hell of a good reason to switch, even if the S2 turns out to produce better images very few pro's are likely to make the switch on that basis alone, running a business is about the bottom line not gear ... if your clients are happy with what you supply now you don't spend ( waste ) money on a new system, if however enough clients start asking for MF digital files shot with Leica Lenses then you have to look at the S2, but I doubt many clients will demand that unless the files the S2 produce blow everything else out of the water and as I have already said whilst the S2 images may ( or may not ) be better I doubt they will be that much better as to make a client say "wow, I want the next job you shoot for me done with an S2 or you'll lose my work" they want it as cheap as possible and the current 'blads / Phase provide more than enough quality to satisfy their requirements and their wallets. The S2 may well succeed ( and I hope it does ) , after all Hasselblad took a hell of a financial gamble with the development and introduction of the H1, but look at how it has been accepted and evolved. I guess time will tell, in the meantime I will continue to enjoy the delights of using my M8 and its wonderful lenses just as I will continue to enjoy using my H1 with a Phase back and its wonderful ( or should I rephrase that to "poor" ) Japanese lenses ! Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted August 1, 2009 Share #229 Posted August 1, 2009 A few rich people will buy this camera for the prestige of saying they own the 'best' whether it is true or not; however, when they get their 5x7 prints back and can't see any real difference between their camera's prints and that of their friends using a high end P&S and they had to lug a monster camera that they can't put down while they eat dinner with friends because a) it would occupy the whole table with its lens or fear it will be stolen, they will start leaving it at home. Next it will go on eBay as the novelty wears off where they will lose a ton of money on it. I believe it was a bad decision made worse by the pricing strategy that ignores the cost benefit ratio to the buyer. It still amazes me that they have the gall to charge for premium service for a camera in this price range. Even an M8 is over priced for what it offers. I look forward to the imagined superior images that will blow the Phase P65+ away. P.T. Barnum was right, there is a sucker born everyday and Leica is good at finding them. If anyone is foolish enough to pay for premium service they will deserve what they get and if anyone is foolish enough to buy this camera without it they will deserve what they get. It's a lose lose proposition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 1, 2009 Share #230 Posted August 1, 2009 You're not right on that point I must say, Hasselblad produce an adaptor called the "CF" adaptor, it is designed to allow Zeiss "C" and "CF" lenses to be used on ALL "H" series bodies. Focusing is manual only as is the shutter cocking, not as cumbersome as it sounds though and the results are very good, I know ... I use one. Yes the "H3" series is closed but that is regarding 3rd party backs not 'blads own "V" series Zeiss legacy lenses. Kind regards Simon You are correct sir. I do know that. Didn't mention it, though, because we were talking about the new, integrated digital MF cameras from Blad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted August 1, 2009 Share #231 Posted August 1, 2009 There seem to be a lot of people posting in this thread who "know" who will be buying the S2. I wish I had a crystal ball like the ones they have! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 1, 2009 Share #232 Posted August 1, 2009 I can understand the sentiment myself about how many would love to use it and being able to create beautiful work with an S2. Unfortunately, I think Leica is apt to think like a business and let market forces decide who is the best. The "Best" can afford it. A concept I rarely agree with though. There are many markets that just cannot pay enough to justify an S2. Frankly, when buying a new MF system one is in that price level. Yet, I wouldn't buy the S2. In my book it is not a thoroughbred MF system. Not like Phase or Blad. It is a tweener system and the price should have reflected that. Period. Also, let's not forget that's how they announced the camera a year ago. Leica had a tremendous chance to rock the boat we call photography. Yet, they managed to screw it up royally. (Not the kind of exclusive club one likes to belong to, isn't it?) Anyhow, let's face it, the good old Leica exclusiveness is a thing of the past. Building cameras robust like tanks is also a concept from yesteryear. The short product cycles from today rendered such "Uber Perfectionism" obsolete already several years ago. To be honest, his kind of 'change in times' is something German's have a hard time dealing with. From that perspective it's no surprise that the S2 is all over sudden a MF camera and gets priced accordingly. Now imagine this... Nikon (as an example) might come out tomorrow/in a couple months with a similar tweener camera (in Nikon tradition called the 'F-UL' . Maybe with a similar sized sensor, even higher ISO capabilities without noise, live view, video and what not. And all that for a third of the price of the S2. That S2 Panzer would be dead in the water and sink faster than anyone could say "Achtung Herr General". Unfortunately, that's the times we are living in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted August 1, 2009 Share #233 Posted August 1, 2009 'haribo' "In my book it is not a thoroughbred MF system. Not like Phase or Blad. It is a tweener system and the price should have reflected that. Period. Also, let's not forget that's how they announced the camera a year ago. Leica had a tremendous chance to rock the boat we call photography. Yet, they managed to screw it up royally." Curious, just how did they 'screw it up royally'? What exactly is a 'tweener system'? In your book, that is. Wow, you sure know allot about Leica being dead in the water if Nikon came out with a similar camera. If you don't like what Leica is doing, don't use their equipment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted August 1, 2009 Share #234 Posted August 1, 2009 The fan boys will stand on the fantail as the ship sinks swearing it isn't sinking it is only the tide rising! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 1, 2009 Share #235 Posted August 1, 2009 'haribo'"In my book it is not a thoroughbred MF system. Not like Phase or Blad. It is a tweener system and the price should have reflected that. Period. Also, let's not forget that's how they announced the camera a year ago. Leica had a tremendous chance to rock the boat we call photography. Yet, they managed to screw it up royally." Curious, just how did they 'screw it up royally'? What exactly is a 'tweener system'? In your book, that is. Wow, you sure know allot about Leica being dead in the water if Nikon came out with a similar camera. If you don't like what Leica is doing, don't use their equipment. Maybe you should read earlier posts to understand the context of my post. it also helps not to twist the one you're quoting. Guess, that's probably asked too much of a fanboy... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 1, 2009 Share #236 Posted August 1, 2009 The fan boys will stand on the fantail as the ship sinks swearing it isn't sinking it is only the tide rising! Hey, nice one. I got to remember it, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted August 1, 2009 Share #237 Posted August 1, 2009 ... a fanboy... I've asked before but it seems necessary to ask again... can we PLEASE lose the stereotypes and put-downs? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 1, 2009 Share #238 Posted August 1, 2009 ... Anyhow, let's face it, the good old Leica exclusiveness is a thing of the past. Building cameras robust like tanks is also a concept from yesteryear. The short product cycles from today rendered such "Uber Perfectionism" obsolete already several years ago. To be honest, his kind of 'change in times' is something German's have a hard time dealing with. From that perspective it's no surprise that the S2 is all over sudden a MF camera and gets priced accordingly. Now imagine this... Nikon (as an example) might come out tomorrow/in a couple months with a similar tweener camera (in Nikon tradition called the 'F-UL' . Maybe with a similar sized sensor, even higher ISO capabilities without noise, live view, video and what not. And all that for a third of the price of the S2. That S2 Panzer would be dead in the water and sink faster than anyone could say "Achtung Herr General". Unfortunately, that's the times we are living in. Actually for myself, I would like my cameras and their optics to be well built like tanks. Short product cycles are fine for consumer products but not for professional products meant to last. Canons and Nikons have excellent top of line cameras and built to last but I have had niggardly little issues that can only be quality of parts. Perhaps if they priced their cameras and optics at double the current, the few percent of lemons will reduce. Past experience with Hassy, Sinar, Rollei (film days) have all been good for me basically because they perform like tanks in all conditions and at all apertures that I use. I really liked that. High ISO noise abilities, live view, video, anti-dust sensor cleaning, anti shake are relatively new frontiers that open up photography and if you need it you don't really have a choice but go to those who have it. Those are relatively exclusive feature sets. Really nice to have and in some cases absolutely essential. Its really a case of differentiating from competitors and a matter of you picking the right tool. In the case of the S2, the differentiation may not be sufficient for many who have the money to buy it. come on, we live in really good times when there are so many diverse tools to do photography really well. Its only the financial aspect thats makes certain tools out of reach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 1, 2009 Share #239 Posted August 1, 2009 There seem to be a lot of people posting in this thread who "know" who will be buying the S2. I wish I had a crystal ball like the ones they have! In a real sense, the crystal ball is very clear because of their personal experiences and local environment should not be discounted. That our crystal ball is not omniscient is probably what differentiates a company willing to take calculated risks from those who will not. Forums are valuable for data mining for that reason and should give Leica guidance as to where to concentrate their efforts. The fact that there seems to be no kits offered tells me that they seem to be building to order and want to build data profiles of their customers. Putting a price list out at this moment will bring out those who will put down a deposit for an S2 and queue for it. If there is a sufficient critical mass of professionals. That's where Leica will start the professional services. Platinium service or whatever is not defined as yet and may not be offered at places without the critical mass. I think Leica is being careful and deliberate. Just my take. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 1, 2009 Share #240 Posted August 1, 2009 In a year's time, we will all have a different and more valid viewpoint of the S2 system I am sure. Until then, all it will be is numbers, even when those lame "test" shots come out. Personally, I have much better things to do with my time than speculate and complain about a camera that has yet to fall into super talented hands and be shown in the form of finished and fantastic images. Truly, nothing else matters, not even the S2. That's a good philosophy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.