Guest Henri Klein Posted July 16, 2009 Share #21 Posted July 16, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Nein Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 Hi Guest Henri Klein, Take a look here Made in Germany - does it mean anything any more?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
NZDavid Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share #22 Posted July 16, 2009 Of course just because a product is made in a certain country is no guarantee of quality -- but I'm prepared to pay a premium if a product is well designed and made to last. A German design professor once told me his father always said,"I can't afford to buy cheap shoes." It's been my experience that German-made products can be very good indeed. We got a Miele washing machine when our old toploader conked out. Excellent build quality. We have a Mercedes, an oldie but going strong. (The Mercedes-Benz museum in Stuttgart is brilliant to visit, btw). Even my old Birkenstocks last and last. And so will our Leicas. Sometimes, these products may not be loaded with all the whiz-bang features: there's a certain Bauhaus minimalism which I like. Interestingly, when I first lived in Germany, briefly, in 1984, I found that Germans admired Japanese products for their quality. They are certainly among the best. I think it's a shame American cars have lost their way. I always find it ironic that photos from Cuba show faded but amazingly preserved examples of '50s American automobiles. Surely a testament to Detroit over-engineering of that era! And Mustangs are still pretty cool. Stereotypes they may be, but there's still some validity to nationalities and product design. I like this on cows: New and Improved Economic Cow Jokes | Beyond The Beyond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
twittle Posted July 17, 2009 Share #23 Posted July 17, 2009 Interestingly, when I first lived in Germany, briefly, in 1984, I found that Germans admired Japanese products for their quality. They are certainly among the best. Where optics are concerned, the Japanese certainly learned from the best. Their current prowess in that arena is based on knowhow the Germans gave them during their WWII alliance. I think it's a shame American cars have lost their way. That's hardly a new issue. The downhill trip began at least as early as the beginning of the '80s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
summarod Posted July 17, 2009 Share #24 Posted July 17, 2009 I agree Miele are excellent. There's another appliance manufacturer, AEG which doesn't enjoy the same reputation. In Germany, AEG is said to stand for: "Auspacken, Einstecken, Geht's Nicht" (Unpack it, plug it in, doesn't work) May I offer a little variation on this very important issue? AEG: "Auspacken, Einschalten, Garantie in Anspruch nehmen" "unpack it, switch on, claim guarantee (warantee)" But to be honest, this joke is at least 30 years old, things have changed! best regards Wolfhard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
summarod Posted July 17, 2009 Share #25 Posted July 17, 2009 Hello! Well there are still good things made in Germany, some have been named here. But think about,- don`t think everyone has his set of Solingen knifes, his Leica, his Mercedes,- The overwhelming majority of consumer goods basically comes from,- yes , you know it! It is more or less difficult to buy something that does not come from China, or so-called low-cost labour countries. Most people don`t care, where their stuff comes from. best from Krautland,- Wolfhard PS. Picked up on a flea-market, an old slide that had been used for educational purposes,- Those were the days! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/90854-made-in-germany-does-it-mean-anything-any-more/?do=findComment&comment=964810'>More sharing options...
georg Posted July 17, 2009 Share #26 Posted July 17, 2009 Yes, it makes a difference because circumstances in production are different. Germany has very strict regulations regarding safety, environmental standards, job contracts... It simply makes short-sighted thinking difficult: you have to invest into more advanced tools & machines because work is expensive, you have to be efficient, you have to handle the workers with care - or your investments into them are lost. The other thing is the education-system. After school you start as a trainee in a company, you're trained there (and sometimes at special schools, too) for 3 - 3 1/2 years in a certain field (there are hundreds of different fields for technical occupations alone!) and then you start to work in production for example. Most of the people working in Solms are those "Facharbeiter", companies invest tenthousands of Euros, teach them specific know-how so they are able to maintain more complex machines, understand and solve problems in production... As far as I understand, the US still have those special trained "technicians" in certain areas of the military and aerospace-industry - in Germany it's the standard. But this philosophy doesn't work in short-sighted economy, which is ruled by shareholder-value. It's efficient and the only way to achieve higher quality standards, to advance technology, but it takes lots of investments and long-sighted thinking, perspective - that's the problem of "Made in Germany" When problems occur, it's usually not "Made in Germany" itself, but a different philosophy introduced by cost-cutting, about 10-30% of the parts in German Luxury cars are manufactured in countries with low social, safety and environmental standards which have nothing to do with "Made in Germany" but these components find their way into products manufactured in Germany and when it fails, "Made in Germany" failed... About 70% of the Leica-bodies (this number was told for the R8) and over 90% of the lenses are "Made in Germany". Miele is another pristine example of "Made in Germany", over 90% of a Miele washing-machine are "Made in Germany" but certain silicium-components of the electronics have to be bought by suppliers which relocated their production from Japan to China, and the problems with the electronics start... Many international companies tranfer know-how from their "home-facilities" (e.g. in Germany) to low-cost-facilities and establish certain QM/QC-standards. But the problems are still solved by the well-paid "Facharbeiter", so it's not very easy to tell which quality standards really exist in the new facility. To make a long story short and to make things halfway understandable: Yes, "Made in Germany" (as well as "Made in Switzerland"...) leads to higher quality and more efficiency because of higher standards. But many German brands don't rely on "Made in Germany" - be careful! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elansprint72 Posted July 17, 2009 Share #27 Posted July 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ................ I always find it ironic that photos from Cuba show faded but amazingly preserved examples of '50s American automobiles. Surely a testament to Detroit over-engineering of that era! ........... I think it is more testament to the fact that they could not get any new ones, thanks to the US trade embargo, and had to fix up whatever they already had. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 17, 2009 Share #28 Posted July 17, 2009 I think it's a shame American cars have lost their way. I always find it ironic that photos from Cuba show faded but amazingly preserved examples of '50s American automobiles. Surely a testament to Detroit over-engineering of that era! And Mustangs are still pretty cool. I have a BMW Z4 with 32,000 miles on it and a Ford Explorer SUV with 33,000 miles on it. The Ford has been flawless, is incredibly smooth and quiet and is a wonderful vehicle overall. The BMW makes various rattles and other noises (yes it has a stiff suspension.) and has had several problems - water leaked into the passenger compartment. The motor for the convertible top broke, a window stopped working properly and the biggest - it was manufactured and sold with defective steering. The steering issue was very troubling and took several years to get resolved. BMW put my life and that of others at risk and once they understood and corrected the steering issue (in the first year of production) should have recalled the defective cars and fixed them. But apparently they only repaired the cars of those who researched on the net, understood the problem (intermittent and ambient heat related) and knew that BMW made a new steering column that solved the problem. (After 5 years and some web research, I finally got a new steering column for free after being charged $3,000 to "fix" things that had no effect on the steering problem.) BMW Z4 steering defaults [site Map] - SportsCarForums.com Steering Problems (the continuing saga) - BMW Z4 (E85) Message Forum Scroll down on this page. So my opinion of "Made in German" is not very high. If you really want to see an advanced system, study how the logistics of the McDonalds restaurant supply chain works. Or Walmart's. I think US technology in computers, aerospace, military, biotechnology, pharmaceuticals, medical imaging and diagnostics, chip design and fabrication, image recognition, computer system implementation, software, advanced materials, etc. is pretty much world leading. I think the knowledge and techniques for making a lens to Leica's specifications have been around for a long time. It is just having the desire (and economics) to do so. I know a man who designs telescopes. When I started asking him about astronomy, he said he didn't know much about that as his telescopes were made to look down. I think the US must have the most advanced optical industry in the world. I also know an engineer who works on advanced ship hull designs for military ships. As I heard one person put it years ago, a typical US engineering graduate is not interested in making a still smaller tape recorder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted July 17, 2009 Share #29 Posted July 17, 2009 You cannot compare differently designed products with different production descent (?). The (not the new one) BMW Z4 is another example, it isn't even manufactured in Germany (only a few components are), the workers of BMW in the US are not very-well paid (about half as much as the workers in Germany) in a region with weak infrastructure (so the workers are willing to compromise their expectations and the state is willing to pay high subventions) and no experience with complex car-manufacturing... When a company is not even willing to pay acceptable wages, it's also not willing to pay for better design, materials, suppliers, QC... So "Made in Germany/Switzerland..." is actually more worth than the origin of the brand and it's definitely harder to manipulate... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted July 17, 2009 Share #30 Posted July 17, 2009 With respect to Leica I always preferred to buy "made in Canada" lenses and even the odd M camera when I could. I even liked the "made in Portugal". That said, I really have never cared much for the "made in Germany" requirement. I would much prefer that the products be manufactured to the highest standards at the lowest costs possible. If that means, designed in Germany and manufactured in Malaysia in a Leica owned plant, for example, so be it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erg Posted July 17, 2009 Share #31 Posted July 17, 2009 I like products that are robust, stable in value, timeless and recognizable in design. It can be from Germany or elsewhere: Opto-Mechanics, cars and kitchen appliances from Germany Cordovan leather shoes from New England Mechanical watches from Switzerland High quality seafood from the Japanese Cuisine Design furniture from Italy High End HiFi from England and Denmark Hardware design and software from Cupertino CA Hand woven silk carpets from Hereke/Turkey ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 17, 2009 Share #32 Posted July 17, 2009 I have a BMW Z4 with 32,000 miles on it and a Ford Explorer SUV with 33,000 miles on it. <snip> So my opinion of "Made in German" is not very high. Where in the world is the BMW Z4 made, Alan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 17, 2009 Share #33 Posted July 17, 2009 You cannot compare differently designed products with different production descent (?). The (not the new one) BMW Z4 is another example, it isn't even manufactured in Germany (only a few components are), the workers of BMW in the US are not very-well paid (about half as much as the workers in Germany) in a region with weak infrastructure (so the workers are willing to compromise their expectations and the state is willing to pay high subventions) and no experience with complex car-manufacturing... When a company is not even willing to pay acceptable wages, it's also not willing to pay for better design, materials, suppliers, QC... So "Made in Germany/Switzerland..." is actually more worth than the origin of the brand and it's definitely harder to manipulate... ------------------------------------------------------------ Crunching content At 30%, BMW’s U.S.-made vehicles have the lowest percentage of domestic content among transplant automakers under NHTSA standards, which count the value of U.S. and Canadian parts. Here are the average percentages of U.S. and Canadian content in the 2006 models of foreign automakers in North America. Toyota 73% Honda 68% Nissan 64% Mercedes 62% Hyundai 36% BMW 30% Source: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, automakers ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.autonews.com/article/20070514/ANA/70510026/1176 So a Japanese Toyota that is assembled in America with 73% North American parts is somehow a well made "Japanese" car? Of course I can compare the two different cars. One has had no problems the other has had some problems. The problems I had with the BMW Z4 would not have magically been avoided if Fritz had assembled the car instead of Bubba. Only 30% of Z4 parts are from North America. I think almost all of the rest are German - European. In any case it was BMW's failure to come clean about a very serious problem that really disturbed me. It was the "engineering" and testing of a new electronic steering system that caused the problem, not the assembly - which was perfect. They eventually re-designed it. Mercedes Q/A really lapsed for a few years. In any case I've owned three new US SUVs - two Fords and one Chevy. They have all worked very well with few problems and have been very dependable. So my point is don't knock US cars. A VW that my girlfriend owned had a lot of problems. The Z3 that I owned before the Z4 was very good. The 100% German BMW 2002 I had back in the 70s was a fun car but had many many problems - some very weird and unexpected. The Japanese Subaru that I had back in the 80s was pretty good but not close to as well made as the Fords or Chevy. Jaguar quality improved dramatically after Ford took over despite the fact that the cars were still assembled in England. I don't think that the amount of salary that is paid to workers necessarily correlates to better quality. In the 70s US unionized auto workers were very highly paid and their products were generally perceived as inferior to Japanese brands where the workers had low pay. Now the quality is up and the pay is not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StS Posted July 17, 2009 Share #34 Posted July 17, 2009 Difficult to say. I guess this has been mentioned before, I have the feeling production can be done almost everywhere on the world now to the same standards. I guess development is a point, where there might be a difference. Maybe two observations. Firstly, I might have driven more than 100 different rental cars in my life. I would say, even if they looked identical, I could distinguish a Audi, BMW or Mercedes-Benz by the way they drive. However, I would have trouble to distinguish, say a Honda from a Toyota. This is not a practical difference, more an emotional one. Secondly, I somehow can't imagine a Japanese camera maker building a camera like the M8 or to keep a camera line like the film-M in production for decades. The Japanese principle seems to be perpetual optimization. Flaws disappear, options are added. However, after some time the, well, entity, idea, spirit is diluted away. Again, the practical advantage is on the Japanese side, the emotional on the German side. I ride a German bicycle having a Japanese transmission. Maybe the best of two worlds? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efra1 Posted July 17, 2009 Share #35 Posted July 17, 2009 The best JAMON de JABUGO and Tortillade Patatas and Paella from Spain...:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamhowa Posted July 18, 2009 Share #36 Posted July 18, 2009 For many years, I only wanted cars made in Germany and cameras made in Germany. In part this had little to do with quality and alot to do with my ethic origin. I was stationed very near Wetzlar in the 3rd Armored Division and my love affair with Leica was part of all of this. The world has changed and all of this means very little now. Nikon and Canon both produce fine cameras and lenses from many points of origin. The Leica brand is really only valuable for those of us who are over 50 now. I continue to have my III and IIIf and my R8 and its lenses. The 35-70 ROM on the R8 is one of the finest lenses I have ever owned and it is made in Japan. It was only after close to a year of shooting with it that I even bothered to check where it was made. So I guess that answered that for me even though I didn't like the answer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share #37 Posted July 18, 2009 Well, I haven't quite reached the 50 mark and there's quite a few youngsters (under 30) who like Leica (see previous posts)! Cars: I reckon they are about as representative of nationality these days as many sports teams. The best-made British and American cars today may well be Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas. For an example of how to really destroy a country's car industry from within, the classic example has to be Britain in the '70s. Summarod, brilliant Mercedes pics of the Pagoda model. I want one! Still a good investment, surely... AlanG, it's good to see someone sticking up for U.S. products: many are world leading, and that goes for design as well as construction. Herman Miller chairs, for example. Outdoor clothing, Red Oxx bags. And technology, of course, especially aircraft. The large domestic market, however, seems to mean that many U.S. products are not exported so much. Georg, I think you are absolutely right about not all "Made in Germany" products being 100% -- or even 70% -- German. So perhaps it is time for a stricter definition and rules governing use of the phrase? Erg and others, I like the recommendations of quality products, including the Spanish ham. Hey, and do try some New Zealand wine! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted July 18, 2009 Share #38 Posted July 18, 2009 The best JAMON de JABUGO and Tortillade Patatas and Paella from Spain...:D I suppose a really well cured ham is nearly as robust and durable as a classic Leica or Mercedes-Benz - but surely the only seafood you can say that of is stockfish;) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 18, 2009 Share #39 Posted July 18, 2009 AlanG, it's good to see someone sticking up for U.S. products: many are world leading, and that goes for design as well as construction. Herman Miller chairs, for example. Outdoor clothing, Red Oxx bags. And technology, of course, especially aircraft. The large domestic market, however, seems to mean that many U.S. products are not exported so much. China and the US are neck and neck as the world's largest manufacturers. And the US is one of the top three exporting countries - China, Germany, US. (The entire EU is at the top.) Manufacturing a camera lens is a pretty simple operation compared to designing and making a TomoTherapy machine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share #40 Posted July 19, 2009 But Kodak doesn't make the Retina any more! For some really good innovative new products, from all over the world, see: IDSA - The Industrial Designers Society of America. (Look up IDEA awards.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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