What If?

[Overgaard]

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leica needs new customers like no one else. to get new customers they have to brillant and agressive.

i could think about an early adopter bonus - the first 500/1000/1500 who jump on the S2/+one lens pay just half the price.

that strategie would keep the high price positioning leica always had.

cheers

andy

 

p.s. they should give to the top professionels (they are the key to success) around the world the S2 for free.

 

I agree, but Leica price strategy has so far been to set prices for first-movers high (as they want it) and then keep the prices there till the product drop out and is replaced.

The specials on M8 is a new tune.

But I would prefer if they did as Panasonic and others; start with high prices for first-movers, then drop the price slowly till the product is replaced.

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[R10dreamer]

leica needs new customers like no one else. to get new customers they have to brillant and agressive.

i could think about an early adopter bonus - the first 500/1000/1500 who jump on the S2/+one lens pay just half the price.

that strategie would keep the high price positioning leica always had.

cheers

andy

 

p.s. they should give to the top professionels (they are the key to success) around the world the S2 for free.

 

How do you know that they don't?

[mjh]

But I would prefer if they did as Panasonic and others; start with high prices for first-movers, then drop the price slowly till the product is replaced.

Typically, mass-market digicams are sold at a decent profit for the first three months, when the bulk of the inventory is sold. During the following months, the price drops considerably – and it has to, as that’s the only way to get rid of the remaining inventory in time for the introduction of the next model.

 

If the S2 was to be mass-produced by Panasonic, to be replaced by the S3 next summer, such a pricing system might actually work.

 

In reality, Leica should make sure that every single unit sold is sold at a profit, and that no unit gets manufactured that they don’t expect to be able to sell at such a price. If that means that some people (including me) could not afford an S2, then so be it.

[Overgaard]

True on the consumer market cameras.

 

But also true in the digital age for Hasselblad and others. It's not "Leica for Life" anymore, at least not the same camera throughout life

 

So a strategy of covering R&D costs with the initial sale, then use price to conquer more market; then release an S3 for upgrade sale, use that after a while to conquer more market, then an S4 for upgrade sale, etc

 

The starting price depend on a calculation; if there is more money in selling at lower price to begin with (and sell more) or start out with a high price for those who will buy anyways. That point is up to Leica.

 

But point is that in digital cameras, also in the MF market, prices drop over time as models get older and is renewed with new and larger models. And the interesting thing about S2 is that it can take sale from both MF and FF 35mm market. Lots of guys does portraits, wedding, etc with 35mm gear who should use S2 instead.

[rick_dykstra]

An EOS moment,

 

Is it really like an EOS moment? IIRC, what we saw then was introduction of a broader system with no loss in capability. Where are the S2's super-telephotos? Super-macros?

 

I think we might have seen the moment when Leica lifted the straw that broke its back. We might one day talk about the impact of the global financial crisis as we watch Canon making the most the Leica designs it got for a song.

 

But I hope not. I'd rather see a flock of new customers heading to Leica so it makes a whopping great profit, so then it can make an S2 junior, aka R10, so I can use the fortune in Leica lenses I already have!

[haribo]

Here's what I'm thinking (not that it matters much).

 

The S2 will be like Hasselblad a closed system.

For someone (Pro) who already has made a significant investment in the MF market it is nothing more than an additional camera/system to his/her current stable of equipment.

If there's in some way a need/use for that person and the cost for the additional system can be recovered, than some Pros might go for it.

But I seriously doubt any Pro working already with MF will jump ship for the S2. Such a move has in today's digital workflow world many more implications than just a plain old change in "hardware".

 

For someone who is just getting into MF, the words 'closed system' are not as scary. Simply because there won't be any expensive equipment (tied up money so to speak) sitting useless around collecting dust.

For that person/Pro considering the S2 might be interesting. Considering the system would fit his/her professional needs, that is.

 

Having said this, there is still one big drawback to the S2. And that thought is very much on my mind. So, speaking now for myself ... When buying into a closed system (MF) I still will not even consider the S2. Unlike with Hasselblad's H3DII system there are simply not enough, better said ANY, options available. Which is very limiting to any Pro.

The S2 system consists of one body with built in "digital back" and 4 -later 8- lenses. That's it.

No choice of different backs whatsoever, no different viewfinders, lenses and so on.

(One could ask why is that important? Here's what I'm thinking. Let's say a Pro uses the H3DII-39 but needs for a particular job a 50 or 60mp back (let's say client requirement), he could just go and rent that thing for the shoot and expense it to the client. Same applies to other gear.

With the S2 on the other hand it's Game Over, out of luck.

 

In my opinion it doesn't even matter how good the S2 system will be, because in that high level market pretty much all the MF equipment money can buy is darn good.

(The only thing that would matter is if Leica glass would be available for Hasselblad or PhaseOne cameras! That would make Leica a ton of money!)

 

Anyway, bottom line is the S2 will only appeal to a relative small target group where it indeed would fulfill all needs. Considering the Pro MF market is already very small to begin with, "relative small target group" means in the S2's case rather "scary small target group".

Hopefully, Leica's rich dentist/lawyer crowd in search for a new status symbol (hey, even poor souls like me have nowadays a M8) will pick up the slack.

[markowich]

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Typically, mass-market digicams are sold at a decent profit for the first three months, when the bulk of the inventory is sold. During the following months, the price drops considerably – and it has to, as that’s the only way to get rid of the remaining inventory in time for the introduction of the next model.

 

If the S2 was to be mass-produced by Panasonic, to be replaced by the S3 next summer, such a pricing system might actually work.

 

In reality, Leica should make sure that every single unit sold is sold at a profit, and that no unit gets manufactured that they don’t expect to be able to sell at such a price. If that means that some people (including me) could not afford an S2, then so be it.

 

very interesting analysis on the forefront of the technological/economic interface, with a selfless touch of leica love. certainly to be appreciated by mr kauffmann.

peter

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Here's what I'm thinking (not that it matters much).

 

The S2 will be like Hasselblad a closed system.

For someone (Pro) who already has made a significant investment in the MF market it is nothing more than an additional camera/system to his/her current stable of equipment.

If there's in some way a need/use for that person and the cost for the additional system can be recovered, than some Pros might go for it.

But I seriously doubt any Pro working already with MF will jump ship for the S2. Such a move has in today's digital workflow world many more implications than just a plain old change in "hardware".

 

For someone who is just getting into MF, the words 'closed system' are not as scary. Simply because there won't be any expensive equipment (tied up money so to speak) sitting useless around collecting dust.

For that person/Pro considering the S2 might be interesting. Considering the system would fit his/her professional needs, that is.

 

Having said this, there is still one big drawback to the S2. And that thought is very much on my mind. So, speaking now for myself ... When buying into a closed system (MF) I still will not even consider the S2. Unlike with Hasselblad's H3DII system there are simply not enough, better said ANY, options available. Which is very limiting to any Pro.

The S2 system consists of one body with built in "digital back" and 4 -later 8- lenses. That's it.

No choice of different backs whatsoever, no different viewfinders, lenses and so on.

(One could ask why is that important? Here's what I'm thinking. Let's say a Pro uses the H3DII-39 but needs for a particular job a 50 or 60mp back (let's say client requirement), he could just go and rent that thing for the shoot and expense it to the client. Same applies to other gear.

With the S2 on the other hand it's Game Over, out of luck.

 

In my opinion it doesn't even matter how good the S2 system will be, because in that high level market pretty much all the MF equipment money can buy is darn good.

(The only thing that would matter is if Leica glass would be available for Hasselblad or PhaseOne cameras! That would make Leica a ton of money!)

 

Anyway, bottom line is the S2 will only appeal to a relative small target group where it indeed would fulfill all needs. Considering the Pro MF market is already very small to begin with, "relative small target group" means in the S2's case rather "scary small target group".

Hopefully, Leica's rich dentist/lawyer crowd in search for a new status symbol (hey, even poor souls like me have nowadays a M8) will pick up the slack.

 

 

A lot of very good points and some things I have brought up in the past

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Typically, mass-market digicams are sold at a decent profit for the first three months, when the bulk of the inventory is sold. During the following months, the price drops considerably – and it has to, as that’s the only way to get rid of the remaining inventory in time for the introduction of the next model.

 

If the S2 was to be mass-produced by Panasonic, to be replaced by the S3 next summer, such a pricing system might actually work.

 

In reality, Leica should make sure that every single unit sold is sold at a profit, and that no unit gets manufactured that they don’t expect to be able to sell at such a price. If that means that some people (including me) could not afford an S2, then so be it.

 

Sorry this maybe true with the M8 at such little costs compared to the S2 but if they go by this theory they will sit on the shelves when it comes to very high dollars items trying to squeeze into a extremely small niche market. If this body is anywhere near 20k for a body than all is lost in my thinking. You can look at this two ways , keep the price high and only the rich will buy or open the gates and sell a lot at lower margins and flood the market. It is a one way street on the whole system everything has to be bought new and from Leica . You are a captured audience so why squeeze the buyer. Get them in and let them build there system and you have them in Leica jail. The revenue will come anyway and the more of these out on the street creating what Leica hopes is the buzz than they are much better off than sitting on the dealers shelfs and collecting no PR for future sales. If you can't get these in the hands of people that actually may help promote it than sales will be stale. Frankly love them but not many folks will be listening to the rich folks that can afford them or the middle class that struggles to buy one and says it was worth every dime. Who would you listen too.

Please no offense to anyone here, just point of discussion.

[c6gowin]

Here's what I'm thinking (not that it matters much).

... Having said this, there is still one big drawback to the S2. And that thought is very much on my mind. So, speaking now for myself ... When buying into a closed system (MF) I still will not even consider the S2. Unlike with Hasselblad's H3DII system there are simply not enough, better said ANY, options available. Which is very limiting to any Pro.

The S2 system consists of one body with built in "digital back" and 4 -later 8- lenses. That's it.

No choice of different backs whatsoever, no different viewfinders, lenses and so on.

(One could ask why is that important? Here's what I'm thinking. Let's say a Pro uses the H3DII-39 but needs for a particular job a 50 or 60mp back (let's say client requirement), he could just go and rent that thing for the shoot and expense it to the client. Same applies to other gear.

With the S2 on the other hand it's Game Over, out of luck...

 

I don't understand this logic. Why is it a viable option for a Hasselblad owner to rent equipment to supplement his kit and it is "Game Over, out of luck" for an S2 owner. Its like saying S2 owner's can't rent equipment for the odd job.

 

Mark

[jonoslack]

SFrankly love them but not many folks will be listening to the rich folks that can afford them or the middle class that struggles to buy one and says it was worth every dime. Who would you listen too.

Please no offense to anyone here, just point of discussion.

 

Hi Guy - if the images are good, then it'll sell . . . if they ain't it won't.

Selling cheap to flood the market is a mugs game.

People who might (or might not) be shelling out 10's of thousands on a system don't listen to others - whether they be rich folks or professionals, they look for themselves.

At least, that's what I think.

[wildlightphoto]

Hopefully, Leica's rich dentist/lawyer crowd ...

 

I'm neither a dentist nor a lawyer but I'm willing to bet many members of these professions are a wee bit tired of being lumped into a mindless group of status seekers. Can we drop the stereotypes please?

[R10dreamer]

I'm neither a dentist nor a lawyer but I'm willing to bet many members of these professions are a wee bit tired of being lumped into a mindless group of status seekers. Can we drop the stereotypes please?

 

Well said and thank you. People that speak as if they are talking for the masses are majorly egocentric. Let each person speak for themselves.

[haribo]

I don't understand this logic. Why is it a viable option for a Hasselblad owner to rent equipment to supplement his kit and it is "Game Over, out of luck" for an S2 owner. Its like saying S2 owner's can't rent equipment for the odd job.

 

Mark

 

Frankly, I buy a system (Hasselblad or Phase One) to work with. It's a tool I want to be very familiar with and I want to be able to make it an integral part of an efficient workflow.

I certainly don't want to be in a position where i have to rent constantly another system and then have to deal with different software and adjust my workflow, only to be able to do a job.

Heck, the entire S2 system consists besides the body of 4/8 lenses, not much to rent, isn't there?

 

Bet you gonna say, the S2 owner could just rent a D3X or 1DSM3 plus lens.

True. Question though. If I'd be in that position, why wouldn't I simply buy a DSLR to begin with? Costs a lot less than the S2 will probably go for and either system has gazillion lenses and accessories.

Again, why again would i want to buy the S2?????

[haribo]

I'm neither a dentist nor a lawyer but I'm willing to bet many members of these professions are a wee bit tired of being lumped into a mindless group of status seekers. Can we drop the stereotypes please?

 

Sure, let's call it the Hermes crowd ...

 

Just kidding.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Well I hope no one took offense to my last post. It certainly was not meant in that light. Maybe better said money no object crowd or something like that. Anyway we will see what pricing comes forth. I know right now it does not sound like it is in the cards for me anyway for a awhile. I'm pretty darn happy with what I have and i have not said that in awhile either. The 15 -20K euros is just not in the cards for me. Have to give up too much to switch

[sdai]

I'm afraid that even for the dentists in the States the S2 price will seem to be a little steep.

 

The latest numbers show that the median hourly rate for a dentist in US is somewhere around $65, suppose a S2 starter kit will cost $25000, a dentist must work about 385 hours to cover that which is about 48 working days if counting by 8 hrs per working day, if you work 5 days per week that's 9.6 pretty close to 10 weeks ... almost 2 and a half months, or nearly 1/5 time of the whole year - no eating, no drinking ... no fun, no anything only for a camera, that's pretty amazing.

 

Let's also assume that they don't have to deal with the taxmen so let's not make fun of dentists 'cause they're also part of the working class ... in order to support my expensive hobbies, I also have to sleep in my office occasionally.

[stevelap]

Hi Guy.............People who might (or might not) be shelling out 10's of thousands on a system don't listen to others - whether they be rich folks or professionals, they look for themselves.

At least, that's what I think.

 

Me too.

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Hallo,

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[stevelap]

I'm neither a dentist nor a lawyer but I'm willing to bet many members of these professions are a wee bit tired of being lumped into a mindless group of status seekers. Can we drop the stereotypes please?

 

Well said Doug (and I'm also not a member of either profession).

[Alberti]

What would sales look like if Leica were to price the S2 at about $8000?... And make up some of the likely loss by pricing lenses at somewhat higher than initially anticipated? That price is about the retail for the high end EOS camera.

 

My speculation:

 

1. It would blow away the MF market and be a strong incentive for MF users to look at Leica.

 

2. It would allow the current R population to participate in the market of this new system. I.e., Leica will acknowledge that the R is dead and that we users have experienced an EOS-analogous moment.

 

3. It would encourage new people into the Leica reflex digital market.

 

4. [ ]

5. [ ] .

I agree. A low price drives market take-on.

 

The biggest market introduction problem that needs to be tackled is market adoption of the new format: housing, flange/bayonet. If there is a slow adoption, there will be losses, fast adoption has over and over shown to provide a superior ROI in many percents.

Compare new car models: the dealers will discount just to have it seen on the streets and succesfull.

 

Note that there is another option for getting a lower price, which is a lower cash outlay because of a trade-in discount the dealer gets. In fact, I myself jumped on the M8 because the dealer gave me more than expected for my M6. Then afterwards I took the decision to also go for newer lenses and laid out a similar amount as first

 

And having more than one source for the lens will also prevent those afraid of having to pay $ 12.000 for a CS macro lens from looking elsewhere. If they can buy a converter to a non AF 6x6 or 645 lens - they will be happy of course! Then in due time, they will come in the shop.

 

Just marketing thoughts. The S2 as-is discussed is way beyond my budget!

 

alberti